1. 07 TL-S vs. #2. 07 IS350 vs #3. G35 at Willow Springs Racetrack.
04-13-07, 01:35 PM
#46
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I think the problem, Vlad, is that you're arguing against hard factual data with your personal impressions and beliefs. This result will be difficult for many of the members here to swallow who think that any RWD car is inherently superior in every performance way imaginable to any FWD car.
The problem is that I was thinking of the TL and this is a TL-S, the newer model that is not for sale yet, as far as I understand. Then it makes more sense.
TL-S has a different suspension from the TL, so what I have said before still stands (I said that I don't see TL winning unless it had a different suspension setup).
And I don't believe that ANY RWD car is inherently superior to ANY FWD car. RWD is inherently superior to FWD, all other things being equal (which rarely happens in the real world). My pride is not injured, or anything...
. I was just thinking about the TL.And I have driven at the track, although I don't have a huge number of hours.
Willow Springs (from Sport Compact Car articles I read) is a course that tends to favor handling over horsepower.
TL-S's behind seems to come around a bit in the video, which is a good thing at the track. I hope that they have a stability control for the street, though, because I can think about a situation on the road where you have to make an emergency stop in the middle of a curve. Aggressive FWD car will tend to step the tail out, unless it's gassed (which is precisely what you don't want to do if you're trying to make an emergency stop). This is kind of a dangerous situation without TCS.
04-13-07, 01:39 PM
#47
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An additional consideration... The FWD vs RWD advantage is diminished on a track. Off the line, RWD has the advantage of physics. When already moving, acceleration in a FWD doesn't lose as much traction as off the line.
As mentioned earlier, the LSD has to help too.
As mentioned earlier, the LSD has to help too.
04-13-07, 02:53 PM
#49
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whenever I see a comparison thread about the TL vs IS vs G, it almost always ended up with the comments of the TL being FWD and FWD is inferior to the RWD IS and GS...... PERIOD.. no if, no but.... In the past, I've defended the FWD platform but did not take it every seriously because I know these people who put down the FWD willingly don't really know what they are talking about. That's understandable because they probably have not driven one of the best FWD cars (ITR for example) to understand its capability. Honda/Acura make some of the best FWD cars on the market.
In the ultimate form of motorsports, RWD > FWD period... but in production cars, that does not hold the candle and this comparion proved it that FWD can be > RWD.
Here are the spec for all three
IS350
V6 3.5L: 306hp, 277 lbf-ft. Weight 3527 lbs
G35
V6 3.5L: 306hp, 268 lbf-ft. Weight 3497 lbs
TL-S
V6 3.5L: 286hp, 256 lbf-ft. Weight 3680 lbs.
How is the TL-S a "hotrod" when it has LESS hp & tq and weight ~200 lbs and ~150 lbs MORE than the G & IS respectively?
The G also had the manual transmission and still 2s behind the TL-S so it's not just because of the transmission.
Another excuse someone mentioned was becasue the TL-S has LSD... IS also has LSD.. not mechanically but electronicaly.. both concepts work the same. So that excuse is also out the window. People need to give credit where it is due.
The time beween the G and IS is close that one slightest mistake between the two during a turn could change the outcome. But both of these cars were way behind the TL so the win was very decisive. On a road course, a FULL 2 seconds win is ALOT. I guess if the average speed was around 85-90mph, a 2 seconds is equivalent to 83-88 yards which mean the TL pulled ahead and never looked back.
Am I surprised of the win? Hell yes. I did not expect a heavier, less power and torque FWD car to SMOKE the more powerful and ligher RWD "sport/sporty" cars. So kudos to Acura.
In the ultimate form of motorsports, RWD > FWD period... but in production cars, that does not hold the candle and this comparion proved it that FWD can be > RWD.
IS350
V6 3.5L: 306hp, 277 lbf-ft. Weight 3527 lbs
G35
V6 3.5L: 306hp, 268 lbf-ft. Weight 3497 lbs
TL-S
V6 3.5L: 286hp, 256 lbf-ft. Weight 3680 lbs.
How is the TL-S a "hotrod" when it has LESS hp & tq and weight ~200 lbs and ~150 lbs MORE than the G & IS respectively?
Another excuse someone mentioned was becasue the TL-S has LSD... IS also has LSD.. not mechanically but electronicaly.. both concepts work the same. So that excuse is also out the window. People need to give credit where it is due.
The time beween the G and IS is close that one slightest mistake between the two during a turn could change the outcome. But both of these cars were way behind the TL so the win was very decisive. On a road course, a FULL 2 seconds win is ALOT. I guess if the average speed was around 85-90mph, a 2 seconds is equivalent to 83-88 yards which mean the TL pulled ahead and never looked back.
Am I surprised of the win? Hell yes. I did not expect a heavier, less power and torque FWD car to SMOKE the more powerful and ligher RWD "sport/sporty" cars. So kudos to Acura.
Last edited by newr; 04-13-07 at 03:16 PM.
04-13-07, 03:02 PM
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your comment is somewhat true with low hp cars only which most of FWD cars are.
04-13-07, 03:15 PM
#52
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Just curious, any comment the tester mentioned about "driving dynamic" or "feel"? Remember couple months ago there's an article comparing a Z06, 997 Turbo and F430 on the track. The Z06, even has the most impressive numbers on paper (fastest on track, biggest hp and torque, best bang-for-the-buck), still ranked last, because, even it's fastest on the track, also happened to be the toughest one to handle, hence taking away a lot the "fun element" through driving.
04-13-07, 03:26 PM
#53
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OK. Who are you and what have you done with our Mike? 
I really appreciate your objective reporting of this comparo. A couple of posters must have missed the part that said the TL-S and G35 were manual transmission. The IS, of course, is not available with a stick.... yet. I hope that the IS-F will be offered with a manual but the preliminary info only shows the 8 speed auto (which is not a bad thing).
I believe that the same driver was used. Why have him there if you're not going to use him? That would skew the results and the mag would lose cred. Also, the "Drift King" driver is pictured in the IS and standing next to the G. (Green jump suit)
Also, in response to another poster, all TL's with manual transmission come standard with LSD (limited slip differential).
As to US or Japanese spec? TLs are all made in Marysville, Ohio. If they are even sold in Japan, this is only recently. Originally, they were not.
Base TLs come two ways: 1) loaded and 2) loaded with navi. You can pick auto or manual on the TL at the same price. Navi is standard on the TL-S. The only option is high performance tires ($200) which improve handling somewhat.
I currently have a 2004 TL but will be standing in line for the IS-F when it is available. I hope the price is reasonable.
Besides, the Capuccino at the Lexus showroom is better than the coffee at the Acura dealer. AND, they have cookies.
I really appreciate your objective reporting of this comparo. A couple of posters must have missed the part that said the TL-S and G35 were manual transmission. The IS, of course, is not available with a stick.... yet. I hope that the IS-F will be offered with a manual but the preliminary info only shows the 8 speed auto (which is not a bad thing).
I believe that the same driver was used. Why have him there if you're not going to use him? That would skew the results and the mag would lose cred. Also, the "Drift King" driver is pictured in the IS and standing next to the G. (Green jump suit)
Also, in response to another poster, all TL's with manual transmission come standard with LSD (limited slip differential).
As to US or Japanese spec? TLs are all made in Marysville, Ohio. If they are even sold in Japan, this is only recently. Originally, they were not.
Base TLs come two ways: 1) loaded and 2) loaded with navi. You can pick auto or manual on the TL at the same price. Navi is standard on the TL-S. The only option is high performance tires ($200) which improve handling somewhat.
I currently have a 2004 TL but will be standing in line for the IS-F when it is available. I hope the price is reasonable.
Besides, the Capuccino at the Lexus showroom is better than the coffee at the Acura dealer. AND, they have cookies.
04-13-07, 03:46 PM
#54
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However, the front of the FWD car is going to have less traction for either steering or forward acceleration than the front of the RWD, since the rubber can't provide maximum grip for both at the same time.
Also, the sliding of the TL-S, while giving it a good lap time, will eventually overheat its tires and its grip would suffer - good for time attack, but not sustainable in the long run - this of course, matters more in racing than on the street. Sure looks like a lot of fun, regardless
.
04-13-07, 05:11 PM
#55
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I'm reading the comments on your forum. I think we have been very very fair and balanced and you can go back and tell them I don't appreciate them not even reading this thread and coming with 3 year old conclusions.
I won't post cross links b/c they are against forum rules here.
04-13-07, 05:23 PM
#56
Seriously, who cares? The next time one of you all ask a question about which car you should by for your weekend track car maybe we can come back to this discussion. Until then, I don't see much people in the dealer showrooms arguing with the sales guy about which car is faster around Willow Springs. They are all great cars with pros and cons to each. The one that fits you best is the best car for you.
04-13-07, 06:05 PM
#57
Lexus Champion
Wow, I am surprised that a TL-S is faster around turns than both the IS or G. I'm going to have to take one out for a test drive. I've taken a standard TL through some high and low speed turns, and I wasn't very impressed (loaner + 100 mile commute with windy roads = ).
I wonder how a TL-S with the RL's SH-AWD would fare. That sounds like the next logical step.
Though I love the pricing and content of Acuras these days, I still don't like the styling of their current lineup. You can't please everyone I guess...
).I wonder how a TL-S with the RL's SH-AWD would fare. That sounds like the next logical step.
Though I love the pricing and content of Acuras these days, I still don't like the styling of their current lineup. You can't please everyone I guess...
04-14-07, 04:02 PM
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I wouldn't say the TL-S is seen as second rate per se. All you have to do is sit in one and drive it to kill that notion. But FWD being regarded as second rate vs. RWD is a common perception.
As the manufacturers learn how to set it up properly, the differences are not so blaring- as witness the subject test in the OP.
But, I was born in upstate New York so I worry that I won't be able to spin donuts in the snow of the shopping center parking lot as well with my TL. LOL.