xpditor

Pertinent to your question, you will notice in the video that the TL-S has the VSA turned off. (Amber triangle on the bottom left instrument cluster).

The reason for this is that the ECM has a torque limiting function that cuts power to the TL's front wheels under certain circumstances (like turning) to eliminate any torque steer. This can be a loss of as much as 25% torque in first and second gear only... the thinking being that if your wheels are turned that far, you're just going to be burning the tread off the tires with full torque and fighting the wheel as the LSD does it's thing. Sounds crazy, but it works as intended.

However, in racing situations, you want full control and full torque, thank you very much. So, the torque limiting function is wired to the VSA and is disabled when you turn off the VSA. I hope that is not too technical. VSA=Vehicle Stability Assist; LSD=Limited Slip Differential.

One other thing: The TL-S is a regular production model. It has been available from Acura showrooms since November 2006. As someone mentioned, the manual tranny cars and the TL-S have slightly tighter suspensions and larger ventilated Brembo brakes.

Threxx

RWD is superior to FWD in almost all forms of performance driving. It's only natural that when you're accelerating you want weight to shift over the back wheels, giving you more traction. Not to mention the ability to slide the back out to control under and oversteer on turns is almost crucial to performance drivers.

I can't think of a single serious dedicated performance car that isn't either RWD or AWD.

Now that's not to say FWD doesn't have its uses. For the average joe it offers more predictable foul weather handling among quite a few additional benefits, while typically making little to no difference in the performance of the vehicle at the level that MOST drivers actually push their cars (ie: no wheels skidding around turns).

FWD is fine and dandy for the average joe, even the average joe who likes to drive a sporty car. But it is most definitely runner up to AWD and RWD configs when it comes to all out performance driving.

And just so it's clear I'm not biased or have preconceived notions - look at what I'm driving at the moment. It's FWD.

xpditor

You're entitled to your opinion and you certainly have lots of company.

Here's a translation of the Japanese from the magazine (in part) from one of their best professional race drivers:

"The final corner at Willow Springs is a high speed corner where you go in at 4th gear with no braking. The speed range for the final corner at Tsukuba Circuit is no where close to the one at Willow Springs. Even professional American drivers course-out or crash when exiting the corner at times. Even at corners like this, I was able to step on the gas with the TL. Seems like the TL never goes under (under steer i think). The nose of the car smoothly shifts towards the inside, it is amazing... As I drive the TL more and more I ask myself, "Wait! Is this car a FR? (front engine, RWD)?" The performance is unbelievable for a FF."

And, of course, he had better track times with the FWD and less power than he could muster with the two very capable RWD cars.

That is the amazing part of all this.

LexFather

I just went to the track a couple weeks ago and one of our guys had a new Civic SI and I was very impressed with how it handled. I am sure the TL-S expands upon this. To me the SI was very neutral and didn't seem to get nervous and the guy was like me, not a professional driver.

Of course I had to show them what a GS could do on the track

I am not sure if anyone can answer this and I am assuing the VDIM/TRAC, etc from all the cars was disabled.

One thing about FWD cars, they are much EASIER to learn and get in the car and take off. RWD cars, you need some time to learn and exploit their capabilities.

I am sure most of us expected the G35 to finish first and the TL-S last with the IS midpack. The IS stayed midpack but the TL-S was 1st with the G35 last.

So I am super curious what a TL with SH-AWD would have done since SH-AWD reviews have been stellar from a handling perspective.

Threxx

Just because there are some people who don't understand how to drive a RWD car, or prefer FWD characteristics, doesn't mean RWD is not technically superior.

Again, I say, if RWD is not superior to FWD in true professional racing, then where are the FWD race cars? No I don't mean the various competing classes at the local road race, I'm talking about the big boys - formula one, stock car, rally, drag, kart, etc... all of them RWD and/or AWD with the exception of some rally cars where FWD is considered good for certain setups - but this is akin to the same reason why FWD can be preferred in snow and ice conditions - but AWD is still typically preferable in those conditions depending on the power output of the rally car.

LexFather

I am going to agree with Threxx here and I think Mr. Porcshe and Mr. Enzo will too etc.
Porsche who DEFINES racing, uses RWD cars and amazingly Rear ENGINED cars in the 911. Their racing record speaks for themselves.

No one is taking anything away from what Honda and other FWD car makers have accomplished with FWD.

Look at Audi as an example when it comes to serious performance.
1-They offer the FWD A-4
2. They offer the 50/50 AWD S4
3. They offer the 40/60 RWD bias RS4 b/c engineers felt it does provide the true sporting feel and performance to meet/beat the RWD M3.

We look at any true performance car and they are all RWD or AWD.

Even HONDA knows this, making the mid-engine RWD NSX and front engine, RWD S2000. Yes, the ITR is fabulous, the SI is and now the Type-S (and the TSX has raced very well in competiton) is but even Honda knows that for racing, RWD Is better.

NSX Type-R anyone? (Love that car).

UDel

People are not saying rwd or awd is not the most ideal configuration for a high performance car, what they are saying is that there are plenty of rwd cars that do not perform as well as a highly tuned fwd car like the TL-S, ITR, Prelude, RSX-S, etc. Just because a car maybe rwd or awd does not mean it is automatically a better performer then a fwd car especially a highly tuned one like the TL-S. The results of this test proves that two high performance rwd cars that most of us think should be able to beat a fwd car with less horsepower like the TL-S in a track were unable to and it is a testament to Acuras engineering how the TL-S was able to beat these cars on this track and the driver seemed very impressed with the TL-S. It is not like we are saying since the TL-S is fwd and was able to beat 2 higher powered rwd cars that fwd must be the superior drivetratin, it is just that a highly tuned fwd sedan like the TL-S can hold its own against its rwd competition even if fwd is not the most ideal configuration for a high performance car.

newr

In the ultimate form of auto racings and the ultimate sport cars like the Enzo and Porsche... YES... RWD >>> FWD... period.. nobody is denying that fact.

The topic at hand is about the TLS vs G35 vs IS350. Are these the ultimate sport cars? or as mentioned... true performance cars? ..No. Are they built for racing? No... these are just normal entry luxury production cars built for the average Joe and Jones... We are not talking about real race cars here. We are just talking about these production cars and how are these stock cars perform against each other. The tests were driven by the professional who pushed these cars to its limits on a race track and the less powered and heavier FWD TL-S came out on top against the lighter and more powerful RWD G35 and IS. The win was not by a small margin but a FULL 2 seconds which was equivalent to 83-88 yards (that is almost the lenght of a football field ) What does it all mean? It means that for normal production cars, FWD cars can whoop RWD cars.

For example, look at the Speed World Challenge Touring Car Series where they take production cars ranging from FWD Acura to RWD BMW and turn them into 'race' cars. Again, these cars are not the ultimate sport cars but it is fair to turn these production cars to 'race' cars and race them against each other. The ITR (FWD) raced against other RWD cars and dominated the series. It took the championship home 5 out of 6 or 7 years then the TSX also a FWD car continues to win races against other RWD cars.

There is a limit of how much a FWD car can do. Yes, in the ultimate form of racing, there is NO FWD because FWD is INFERIOR to RWD cars. But again, the topic here is the TL-S vs G35 vs IS which are all entry luxury production cars built for the Joes and Jones.

newr

I have an interesting theory.

I need someone to find out if for a fact that the IS was driven with the VDIM turned off. This is interesting because there was a test similar to this where the IS was driven on a wet race track by the professional with VDIM turned on then turned off. Guess what, the IS got faster time with the VDIM turned on (weird I know) than when it was turned off while other cars tested the same time got faster time with it turned off

So, If the driver of the IS assumed that with the VDIM turned off he would get faster time when in fact he got slower time? This is just my theory but it probably is not true because the track here was dry but I am throwing it out there anyway.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Has anyone asked the most important question here? Were they all on the same tires?

The rest of this is picking fly shyte out of pepper. It's EASY to have a 2 second a lap advantage just from having better tires, especially at Willow Springs on the big track. You can make that in just turns 8 and 9 if the car sticks through those two turns which also happen to be the fastest turns on the track leading to the longest straight. For those of you who don't race, the turns leading to the longest straight are the MOST important on the track because every mph you carry through the turn adds a mph down the whole straight. Fast guys use every inch of 8 and 9.

UDel

Unless the TL received a good bump in horsepower like to 320-330 I don't think a TL with SH-AWD would have been as fast as the fwd version because of the extra weight of the AWD system and channeling the power to all 4 wheels. SH-AWD would probrably help in the corners more and be a little funner and more controlable but in accelerating out of turns and straightaways it would slow the car down a little. Look at the RL, it had 290SAE horsepower vs the fwd TL with 258SAE horsepower and the RL was not as fast, at least in a straightaway. The best 0-60 time I have seen for the RL was 6.3-6.4 seconds, the best for the TL was 6.1sec auto and 5.6 sec for a 6 speed A Spec TL. The only 0-60 number I have seen for the new TL-S is 5.7sec which I think was pretty low and it can achieve a much better number considering the larger engine and horsepower/torque boost plus a normal 3.2 258hp 6 speed has done it in that same time. The RL is more luxurious with more features and is a good deal heavier but its weight has alot to do with its awd system which is what slows it down.

newr

That is a good and valid question lobuxracer. These are $35K+ performance sedans and I don't expect them to come with crappy tires. One may come with slight better tires than the other and unless the difference is comparable racing tires vs street tires, I don't see them as a significant factor here.

If we wonder how the result would be had they have the same tires? How about if we add an extra passenger to the IS & G35 to be fair? Remember that the TL-S weight ~200 & 150 lbs more than the other two car. That is quite significant. How about if we restrict the air intake on the IS and the G to reduce the HP equal to the TL? We can go on and on and it won't get us anywhere.

The comparo was done with these car as how they came from the factory. No change was made to any of them.

xpditor

Good question.

The TL-S was equipped with its standard all-season Bridgestone Potenzas. It didn't even have the optional $200 high performance tire option. If I remember correctly, the G uses the same standard tires but I'm not sure about the IS.

I guess it would be logical to conclude that it would have done even better with the high performance tire option.

TLe2006

The IS350 comes w/ high performance summmer tires for 18" rims

xpditor

The TL-S has the same standard all weather tires that the regular TL has which are P235/45 R17 93W (17") but they are rated for sustained speeds of 165 MPH (W).

The sway bars on the TL-S are actually smaller in diameter than the regular TL but they are solid rather than hollow so they are beefier. The suspension basics are the same.

I note one poster thought the TL's suspension was softer than he would like. Interestingly, one of the points of contention for a few of the magazine testers of the TL is that it was kind of stiff riding... but they may have been comparing it to a ES or Avalon. lol

For me, and I have a regular TL (the Type S wasn't available when I bought mine), the ride is just right for me. It is compliant/firm, but I like it that way.

I think, subjectively on the esthetics, that the IS and GS are beautiful cars. The ES is even starting to catch up. I also bask in the looks of my TL on days like today when I detail it. It is black with a camel leather interior. All of these cars turn heads. I hate to admit it, but I think they were all inspired by the BMW 3 series.