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UPDATE: thecarconnection.com's First Drive of Lexus LS600hL(+Edmunds Full Test)

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Old 04-23-07, 09:08 AM
  #76  
GUJIGUJI
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The Only Problem I Have W/ All Hybrid Cars Is The Small Trunk Space. I Really Wish Someday Soon They'll Be Able To Make A Much Smaller Battery.@@
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Old 04-23-07, 10:19 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
How? Does the 600h have upgraded suspension?
First off, the 600h has AWD, which makes it a more stable handling car, and it also has the Active Stabilizer Suspension System which makes it corner flatter. The LS460L has neither AWD nor ****.
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Old 04-23-07, 10:34 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by GUJIGUJI
The Only Problem I Have W/ All Hybrid Cars Is The Small Trunk Space. I Really Wish Someday Soon They'll Be Able To Make A Much Smaller Battery.@@
lithium battery will be comming in a near future.
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Old 04-23-07, 10:38 AM
  #79  
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I don't really see the point of LS600hl while LS460L is as good, as quick, as quiet, and as luxurious.

But if I have money to waste, I'd buy one just for the heck of it.
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Old 04-23-07, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by STIG
I don't really see the point of LS600hl while LS460L is as good, as quick, as quiet, and as luxurious.

But if I have money to waste, I'd buy one just for the heck of it.
exactly.


Edmund's stupidness:
1. Comparing acceleration of AWD and RWD, while forgetting to mention AWD anywhere. What about acceleration in rain, snow, dust, etc?
2. Comparing weights of RWD to AWD
3. Comparing trunk of base LS to trunk of LS600h. Package with back cooler in LS460 already has a lot smaller trunk. It is actually 12 cu ft for LS460 RWD vs 11.7 for LS600h AWD.
4. Comparing LS460's 2007 EPA numbers to all new EPA 2008 EPA standards measurment in LS600h - a lot of their complaint went into "it spends more fuel, EPA says so", withouth understanding this. Considering that they are automotive journalists, lack of understanding something as basic as this is quite telling.

Also, biggest difference would not be 0-60 but passing speeds, as with any hybrid. They did not mention this in single sentence. And this is what you experience in real life.

I would digg LS600h in a second, if I had money. I would still need bigger trunk - bigger than both 12.0 cu ft of LS460 and 11.7 of LS600h, so only option would be model without rear cooler (460).

And people ask why are we buying SUV's - because companies like Lexus are not building versatile enough cars with big trunks.

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Old 04-23-07, 02:51 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by GUJIGUJI
The Only Problem I Have W/ All Hybrid Cars Is The Small Trunk Space. I Really Wish Someday Soon They'll Be Able To Make A Much Smaller Battery.@@
Prius or RX400h dont have this issue... RX400h because it has plenty of space since it is an SUV, and Prius because it was designed specifically to be hybrid.

As more cars are designed for hybrid powertrains in the future, they will be able to make trunks bigger.

Until then, we will drive Prius's and RX400h's, and will leave LS600h's to ultra rich who dont need it to carry baby strollers
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Old 04-23-07, 06:47 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by spwolf
3. Comparing trunk of base LS to trunk of LS600h. Package with back cooler in LS460 already has a lot smaller trunk. It is actually 12 cu ft for LS460 RWD vs 11.7 for LS600h AWD.
So what will the LS600hL trunk size be with the back cooler?
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Old 04-23-07, 10:11 PM
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There appears to be another test of the LS 600h L here, at least it talks about "On the road, and on test tracks at Toyota's Arizona proving ground, the Lexus LS 600h"

http://online.wsj.com/google_login.h...googlenews_wsj

If someone can get the full article...
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Old 04-23-07, 10:31 PM
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Lexus is trying too hard IMO to market to people who want excess. It has gotten to the point that they're making a super expensive car with very diminished returns on value. Granted I'm sure those who buy them will have little issue with that, but still, it's against the whole philosophy that lexus was founded on, which distorts their image, IMO.

I'd love an LS460 in short wheel base with maybe nav and levinson. I'd love to get the semiactive suspension setup, too, if I could get it on the short wheel base.

Otherwise the rest of the options on that car just seem overboard to me. I love a solid well crafted car - but the toys just don't do it for me for some reason. Especially the hybrid system on this new LS that seems to barely be able to push around the extra weight it creates.
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Old 04-23-07, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Threxx
Lexus is trying too hard IMO to market to people who want excess. It has gotten to the point that they're making a super expensive car with very diminished returns on value. Granted I'm sure those who buy them will have little issue with that, but still, it's against the whole philosophy that lexus was founded on, which distorts their image, IMO.

I'd love an LS460 in short wheel base with maybe nav and levinson. I'd love to get the semiactive suspension setup, too, if I could get it on the short wheel base.

Otherwise the rest of the options on that car just seem overboard to me. I love a solid well crafted car - but the toys just don't do it for me for some reason. Especially the hybrid system on this new LS that seems to barely be able to push around the extra weight it creates.
I don't see this distorting the Lexus image, as the car is still a bargain compared to it's V12 German competition, when you consider everything the LS 600h offers. Plus this car is being aimed at a different group of buyers than regular Lexus buyers. All Lexus models still offer good value, just that this model offers less of it.

Lexus is changing, and will soon have something to offer for basically anyone in the luxury market.
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Old 04-24-07, 08:55 AM
  #86  
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Default the carconnection.com's First Drive of LS600hL

A coyote scampers across the tarmac, followed by a jumble of tumbleweed. A hawk sits impassively, nearby. Sheltered from the wind, its talons firmly grip the guardrail surrounding the long oval cut through the parched and barrenArizona desert. Suddenly, the raptor leaps into flight, swooping out of the way as a sleek silver sedan blasts down the Toyota test track.

TheCarConnection.com headed out to that sprawling facility to test drive the LS600h, the all-new, hybrid sedan that Lexus General Manager Bob Carter dubs the "ultimate flagship." Ultimate? One might get good argument from BMW, with its 760 sedan, or Mercedes-Benz, with its CL65 AMG coupe. But there's little doubt, the LS600h will redefine the Lexus brand, moving it up-market and, making it an even more viable alternative to its well-established German competitors.

The LS600h is the most expensive Lexus ever, coming in at $104,750. For your money, you get an incredibly rich and roomy package, loaded with leather and wood, high-line infotainment technology, cutting-edge safety systems, and a numbingly long list of creature comforts. Even so, that price tag could deliver a harsh shock to those who recall the original Lexus LS400, at $35,000, the bargain-priced alternative to high-line European luxury sedans.

There's another reason why the LS600h is garnering so much attention: marques like BMW, Mercedes and Audi, traditionally stuff their biggest engines under the hoods of their flagship sedans, V-12s, like the big 6.0-liter powerplant in the Benz S600.

The LS600h badge is something of a numeric misnomer. Its internal combustion engine is a modified version of the LS460's 4.6-liter V-8 - stroke increased a quarter-inch to deliver an even 5.0-liter displacement. The engine is mated to an all-new Lexus hybrid drive. It's the world's first full V-8 hybrid, unless you count the short-lived "mild" hybrid offered by General Motors on its full-sized pickups. The combined package produces the sort of power as a 6.0-liter V-12 would - while markedly improving fuel economy and sharply reducing emissions.

But can a V-8 hybrid, whatever the numbers, deliver the silky refinement premium luxury buyers expect from a V-12? And does the LS600h, overall, stand up to ultra-sophisticated performers like the S600 and 760iL, which all but guarantee favored treatment by the valet at a trendy new nightclub?

Our silver sedan was waiting in a prime spot at Phoenix 's Royal Palms Resort, as we began a two-day drive. Yes, there's been a fair bit of debate about the look of the new LS line - as there was when BMW rolled out the 7er and Mercedes the latest S-Class. But sitting in the cool, early morning sun, we had to admire the overall design.

The original, '89 LS400 was little more than a Mercedes clone. The latest LS is the clearest expression yet of the so-called L-finesse design language, meant to give Lexus its own visual theme. That's not to say there aren't some derivative elements, including the high rear deck. But to our eyes, this is the best-looking iteration since the first LS debuted, nearly 20 years ago, and the most distinctive. It's muscular and athletic, with a graceful, coupe-like roofline that manages to keep the extended wheelbase version from looking like pulled taffy. (All LS600h models sold in the U.S. will feature the extended body.)

The LS600h is the third hybrid in the Lexus lineup, following the RX400h and the GS450h. And as with those earlier gas-electric models, Lexus has taken the conservative approach. This is no space-age Prius, visually trumpeting its hybrid technology. If you've got a good eye, you might spot the fact that the 600 sits an inch taller than the 460. Otherwise, but for the subtle "hybrid" badge and the model nameplate itself, passersby aren't going to readily distinguish the two.

That's also a subject of some debate. Folks who buy hybrids sometimes do so just to declare their environmental bona fides. But when it comes to a top-end model, like the LS600h, keeping things quiet is probably appropriate.

If the rest of the world can't tell the difference, you likely will, as soon as you slip inside the big sedan. To create this "ultimate flagship," Lexus has loaded the 600 with just about everything it could come up with. That starts with sumptuous, heated and cooled seats covered in sleek, semi-aniline leather. The mouse fur headliner on the LS460h has been replaced with Alcantara, a suede-like synthetic. Leather, wood, and metal accents give the interior a sophisticated, if somewhat conservative, look.

By comparison, the gauge cluster is absolutely high-tech, with a new tachometer so you can tell when the engine is running, not always easy with this hybrid. There's also a power meter so the driver can keep track of how the hybrid system performs.

Interior space is absolutely vast, with plenty of room to stretch out, especially in back. Lexus apparently expects many owners to ride in back, so there's a full infotainment system for rear passengers, as well as foldout footrests. The rear climate control system even boasts infrared sensors to read lap and upper body temperatures to best regulate airflow.

The audio system is Lexus' best-ever, a 16-speaker, 450-watt "reference" surround sound unit from Mark Levinson featuring AM, FM, XM satellite, DVD, a six-CD changer, built-in harddrive, and iPod or MP3 plug-in jack.

Wherever you're sitting, LS600h is a car built for long cruises, with a trunk big enough to hold four Tiger Woods-size golf bags.

One thing we've learned about Lexus introductions: expect to spend at least an hour poring over the various high-tech systems built into the new car. We'll focus on the highlights here, starting with the world's first application of LED projector-style headlamps.

The sedan rides on an adjustable air suspension permitting a driver to not only adjust ride firmness but ride height. The new, Active Power Stabilizer Package option minimizes body roll in corners, using motor-torqued stabilizer bars. The system works surprisingly well until you push close to maximum G-force in corners.

Variable electric power steering adapts to driving conditions, firming up and adjusting steering ratios. When you're parking, Lexus claims the 19.4-foot turning circle is best-in-segment.

The LS600h features VDIM, a Lexus system tying together various ride systems, such as antilock brakes and stability control, as well as engine and transmission controls. In real-world conditions, we found VDIM delivering very predictable, if not overly sporty, handling and performance under a wide range of driving conditions.

If we had one complaint, it was during aggressive and emergency braking. We were surprised to see the long patch of rubber left by one hard stop. During another, the brakes were pulsing and throbbing uncomfortably, though we did stop fast.

Actually, we have another big issue, and that's with the Lexus Advanced Parking Guidance System. Sure, with an engineer sitting by our side, we got it to work three out of four tries, but the process was slow and cumbersome. And trying it on our own, our success rate was significantly lower. Nice idea, Lexus, but we're still not convinced it's ready for prime time.

During a long day at the Toyota test track, we put the LS600h through a variety of challenging tests, including a series of accidents simulations designed to trigger the Advanced Pre-Collision System. Using a variety of body sensors, along with microwave radar and infrared, the system constantly looks for obstacles as far off as 500 feet, whether another car, or something the size of a large animal.

In the event of a potential collision, the system will sound an alert, even apply the brakes, if necessary. A camera, mounted in the steering wheel, watches to see if the driver might be distracted. If so, Pre-Collision responds more quickly. If an accident is unavoidable, the car takes additional steps, such as pre-tensioning seatbelts, to reduce injuries.

For those who like to keep count, there are a total of eight airbags - at a minimum, and up to eleven depending on which rear seat package you order.

The heart and soul of this high-tech sedan is its hybrid drive system.

"Simply dropping in a larger displacement engine would have required no creativity," contents Moritaku Yoshida, chief engineer on the LS program, "and not made the brand statement we wanted."

So Lexus chose, instead, to mate a V-8 with a significantly upgraded hybrid system, including an all-new CVT transmission. The result is a full-time, All-Wheel-Drive powertrain meeting the stringent, Super-Ultra-Low-Emissions-Vehicle, or SULEV, standard, making it 70 percent cleaner than any of its competitors, according to Lexus. Meanwhile, fuel economy, at 21 mpg combined, is closer to the mid-range 5-Series BMW, rather than the big, gas-gulping 760 V-12.

(That is, of course, posted fuel economy. Hybrids have traditionally delivered notoriously lower real-world numbers, and our own, brief experience suggests something closer to 18 mpg should be expected.)

Along with the increase in displacement, the LS600h's engine undergoes some other significant modifications. It uses hollow camshafts, for one thing, and dual pipe intake resonators.

The motor/generator system has been completely revamped to handle the added power of the V-8, as well as to reduce vibration. The package is about 30 percent smaller and 11 pounds lighter than the version used in the GS450h.

The continuously variable transmission is clearly the best we've ever experienced, with none of the rubber band-like feel of most other CVTs. It can also, credibly emulate the feel of the LS460's eight-speed automatic.

For those not familiar with hybrids, they recapture energy lost during braking or coasting, here storing it in a set of nickel-metal hydride batteries. When needed, such as under hard acceleration, that energy powers the sedan's electric motor. Like other Toyota and Lexus hybrids, LS600h can operate in electric-only mode at relatively low speeds and short distances. A new EV Mode button forces the drive to use battery power whenever possible, typically up to about three minutes at speeds up to 25 mph.

(That might be a lifesaver, if you're hoping to creep into your garage, late at night, without being heard.)

The V-8 itself pumps out 389 horsepower and 385 lb-ft of torque. The motor/generator produces 221 hp. But skip the math. In the curious hybrid equation, that works out to a combined 438 horsepower.

On paper, that puts the LS600h up solid against its V-12 competitors. On the road, the sedan is quick, though no benchmark. It'll turn 0-60 times of 5.5 seconds, though Audi's A8L gets there in 4.8 seconds. The overall feel is confident and inspiring, with a nice V-8 resonance, though not the silky V-12 exhaust note aficionados love.

All-in-all, the goal of the LS600h is to "show Lexus as not only refined but innovative," says general manager Carter. "We want to appeal to those prestige buyers who have previously not shopped Lexus."

Does LS600h deliver? When it comes to looks and technology, the new sedan just might crack the European hold on this segment of the market. There are still those who'd prefer a V-12 for its own sake, though others might enjoy the bragging rights of driving an environmentally friendly package.

Price is also a plus. Yes, it may be the most expensive Lexus ever, but LS600h comes in at least $15,000 less than European competitors - more like $25,000 considering comparable equipment packages.

The new sedan is a worthy offering, comfortable, lavish, prestigious, and surprisingly fun-to-drive. While we might have a few minor complaints, the overall package is quite spectacular and we expect the market to pay serious attention when the first LS600h sedans roll into Lexus showrooms.




2008 Lexus LS600h


Base price: $104,750

Engine: 5.0-liter V-8, 389 hp/385 lb-ft; Lexus Hybrid System motor/generator, 221 hp; total system power 438 hp

Transmission: CVT with eight-speed automatic emulation-mode, all-wheel drive

Length x width x height: 202.8 x 73.8 x 58.3 in
Wheelbase: 121.7 in
Curb weight: 5049 lb
Fuel economy (city/hwy): 20/22 mpg (21 mpg combined)

Major standard features: Air conditioning, power windows/locks/mirrors, navigation, Bluetooth hands-free phone system, 19-speaker 450-watt Mark Levinson Reference Surround audio with AM/FM/XM/six-CD changer with hard drive and iPod jack, keyless SmartAccess entry and Smart Card ignition, cruise control, navigation, power tilt/telescope heated steering wheel, engine immobilizer, front and rear multi-zone digital climate control

Safety features: Eight airbags (up to eleven, depending on rear seating package), stability and traction control, tire pressure monitors

Warranty: Four years/50,000 miles
Source with gallery - Click : http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehi...83.A12252.html
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Old 04-24-07, 08:57 AM
  #87  
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Good review, thanks for posting!
 
Old 04-24-07, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I don't see this distorting the Lexus image, as the car is still a bargain compared to it's V12 German competition, when you consider everything the LS 600h offers. Plus this car is being aimed at a different group of buyers than regular Lexus buyers. All Lexus models still offer good value, just that this model offers less of it.

Lexus is changing, and will soon have something to offer for basically anyone in the luxury market.
I dunno man, it's weird. I just look at a basic LS460 SWB and I think "best performance of all of the LS460, rides just as quiet and nice, most likely the best reliability (fewer things to break), just as high quality, yet nearly half the price of the LS600h."
So then I start looking at the ACTUAL differences between the two and what I get for $50000 more. Higher quality? No. Better reliability? Almost definitely not. Lower cost of maintenance? No. Improved acceleration? No. Improved handling? Probably worse on the heavier 600, actually.
So what am I getting for 50 grand? Nicer stereo? I like that. Nav? I like that. Heated rear seats and cooled front seats? Might be nice. But after that the list continues on and on with item after item that I could see myself using once or twice, showing off to my friends the first time they checked the car out, and then never using it again.

Again, I'm not saying I don't understand the target market for the LS600h. I'm just saying it goes against Lexus' original target market. Those that thought if they paid premium money for a premium brand they should get premium quality and reliability and practicality. Lexus made a name by being the brand that you could buy and still feel like you made a practical choice - like for the wealthy consumer reports reader.

This car is reaching out toward those people who really probably couldn't care less about that stuff as long as it doesn't leave them stranded or spend every third day in the shop. They just want exclusivity and toys that their friends don't have.

Again, I understand that. It just goes against my nature. And that's probably especially 'odd' since otherwise I'm an absolute gadget geek - it's how I make my living, in fact.
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Old 04-24-07, 09:42 AM
  #89  
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I totally agree with threxx.
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Old 04-24-07, 09:49 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Threxx
I dunno man, it's weird. I just look at a basic LS460 SWB and I think "best performance of all of the LS460, rides just as quiet and nice, most likely the best reliability (fewer things to break), just as high quality, yet nearly half the price of the LS600h."
So then I start looking at the ACTUAL differences between the two and what I get for $50000 more. Higher quality? No. Better reliability? Almost definitely not. Lower cost of maintenance? No. Improved acceleration? No. Improved handling? Probably worse on the heavier 600, actually.
So what am I getting for 50 grand? Nicer stereo? I like that. Nav? I like that. Heated rear seats and cooled front seats? Might be nice. But after that the list continues on and on with item after item that I could see myself using once or twice, showing off to my friends the first time they checked the car out, and then never using it again.

Seems the Germans have been doing it for years and it hasn't been a problem for them. Your missing the entire point for these "halo" cars. Showcases of the brand, the CREAM OF THE BRANDS CROP.
Again, I'm not saying I don't understand the target market for the LS600h. I'm just saying it goes against Lexus' original target market. Those that thought if they paid premium money for a premium brand they should get premium quality and reliability and practicality. Lexus made a name by being the brand that you could buy and still feel like you made a practical choice - like for the wealthy consumer reports reader.
So let me get this right. Lexus should stay where they were in 1992? They should not evolve? They should not try to advance? What business do you know that is large, stays the same? This car is literally thousands less than its V-12 competition.

This car is reaching out toward those people who really probably couldn't care less about that stuff as long as it doesn't leave them stranded or spend every third day in the shop. They just want exclusivity and toys that their friends don't have.

Again, I understand that. It just goes against my nature. And that's probably especially 'odd' since otherwise I'm an absolute gadget geek - it's how I make my living, in fact.
I can agree its weird seeing a 100k Lexus. IMO, it was weird seeing the last LAS 430 at 70k. I also know its advancement and it is what brands do.

Case in point, we have countless members here who:
Started with a Camry/ES/IS
Moved up to a GS/GX
Continued to move up SC/LS/LX

Now they have the IS-F and 600h L to move up to.

The Germans want to keep people in their brands so badly, they are selling Corolla competiton, A2, A3, 1-series, C-class hatchbacks, etc to get buyers to start and they hope to keep them within the brand.

If you want a brand that does not move up, there are other luxury brands out there for you (that I won't name).
 


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