LexFather

Okay so I got to thinking here b/c I am seeing the 600h L getting the "its not worth it" treatment.
So lets look at some other "top of the range" cars and well,"are they worth it". I'll post a couple and what reviwers thought.
BMW M6-the most expensive or 2nd most expsensive BMW, offers no performance advantage over the M6 coupe. It is 4400lbs. A cloth top convert. 4400 lbs. No hardtop. A coupe with a cloth top. BMW builds it b/c its a "halo" car, a M6 convert. They wont build or sell many but its there.
Reviews have been average at best in EVO, CAR etc.

SL 65- I personally think its an incredible car. Sports Car International could not understand why you need this over the SL 55. They said its almost undrivable. THey took it to the track and could not get the car to launch with the stock tires. Benz won't sell many, won't build many. Its a "HALO" car for Mercedes and the AMG brand.

Porsche 911 (996) GT2-Top of the 911 range. You pay $180,000, you lose the AWD, you lose the electronic gadgets, you keep the turbos. So your paying MORE for LESS. Reviews were average at best. It sold okay. It did provide a "halo" for the 911 range, this was the untamed "beast", a true 911 where you are not always in control.

There are others, those are examples I can think of off the top of my head. I've read on forums where of course:
M6 coupe owners
SL 55 owners
911 Turbo or GT3 owners
State "its not worth it" and their reasons behind it. Thing is, someone DOES find them "worth it" as the cars sell. No matter if its to race or just drive around and be seen in, they are the BEST of that range.

The Lexus LS 600h L may not appeal to traditional Lexus buyers. Guess what, its not SUPPOSED to!!! Reading what Lexus has stated, it is for a new kind of Lexus buyer.

The LS 460 and LS 460L are more in tune with traditional and loyal Lexus owners.

The previous Lexus GM stated "we have to expand in new areas, while trying to also please current and loyal buyers".

Lexus rarely, RARELY ever has a miss. We might not like all of their offerings but someone usually does. Lexus had their top engineers and managment working on the 600h L.

I am confident they know a lot more than I do!

LexFather

Lexus/Toyota management have said since day 1, they want minimal overlap between the 2 brands.

There is no cheap 4 cylinder IS (in America)b/c Lexus research indicates 4 cylinder and luxury brand in America= cheap and "avoid like the plague".

Clearly BMW and Benz got that memo as they stopped selling us 4 cylinder cars as well.

Europe is a different story but I cannot hold a A2 or 1-series in high regard I don't care if it has a Rolls Royce badge, its Corolla competition.

Threxx

Why would you expect the convertible version of the same car to perform any better? You're only paying for the convertible top and required enhancements to the chassis.

OC 335d

Car is clearly different. It's a convertible, isn't that a big enough difference? The question with the 600h is, "what am I getting for the money difference?" Big bump in HP? Convertible top? Oh it's a Hybrid, much better gas mileage? I do agree with a "Halo" or "top of the line" product will always be substantially more expensive than the next one down. You see the same thing in CPUs in the computer industry. The top of the line Pentium XXXX will always be A LOT more expensive for marginal increases in performance.

See HP difference.

HP...

In my opinion, the reason why it doesn't seem "worth it" is because it is a Hybrid that (up until the Autoweek report) does not get an significant increase in MPG. I mean, isn't that the main purpose of Hybrids? Cleaner car with a noticeable affect on fuel economy? I don't think we would be knocking the car if they made it a high HP non-Hybrid. I'd be the first to say, wow that's great. I may not need all the HP but I could appreciate it.

I do not feel the examples you gave were the best examples out there. A convertible vs. a coupe? Isn't that a clear difference between the cars? Someone wants a drop top. Okay, that makes sense. Why does someone by a convertible M6? To put the top down. Why does someone buy a SL65 compared to a SL55? To boast, hey I have a gazillion more HP than you. Fine. Why does someone buy a Hybrid? To get better gas mileage.

The sales figures clearly show it's not a "miss" sales wise. Why is it so wrong that we argue that the initial reports on this car show that this car misses as a Hybrid? 1-2 mpg is a miss IMO as a Hybrid (again, citing comments before the Autoweek report). If this was a BMW 7xx Hybrid, I feel it would be getting flamed left and right on this forum. Is it wrong to disagree?

OC 335d

Competition would indicate people cross-shopping the two. I couldn't imagine cross shopping an A2/1 series vs. a Corolla. I absolutely hate the way the Corolla drives. I'd take a Civic anyday.

Threxx

I think 'not worth it' is stemming from the fact that Lexus added a LOT of weight, a LOT of complexity, and a LOT of extra cost and it appears to not perform much, if any better than the regular ol' LS460 both in acceleration and in fuel economy. I've always heard all the way along that the LS600h wasn't going to be about fuel economy as it was going to be about "V12 performance with V8 economy". Well, I just don't see V12 performance here. Do you?

I'm sure off idle response tooling around town is a little more satisfying due to the torque from the electric motor at lower rpms, but really, is that all V12 performance means?

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

Well, won't people buy the LS600hL because of the HP difference alone?

It's not just bragging rights on having the best hybrid technology, but also having about 50 hp more than a "regular" and "common" LS. To Hell with MPG!!!

I mean, comparing it to Mercedes, there is a huge difference in status and presence between a regular MB versus an AMG version. I think people will think and feel the same when an LS600hL rolls along...

OC 335d

Phillip, I'd rather it be a 100+ hp increase w/o the Hybrid technology but that's just me. The difference in AMG to non-AMG Mercedes is a lot more than just HP increase though. But yes, people will still buy it. I haven't doubted the sales potential at all. That 50+ hp difference is negated by its considerable bloat increase though.

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

I know how you feel.

I've seen people's opinions about the IS-F. I think it would have been cool to have a supercharged hybrid, but the IS-F with a 5.0L engine is more economical and intuitive for being a compact sports sedan.

"There is no replacement for displacement..."

Gojirra99

The Price increase vs. performance gain comparison with the difference between the SL65 & SL55 above is relevent, just looked up these numbers from the Mercedes website :

SL55 - base MSRP $129,575
0-60 mph - 4.4 sec.
510hp @ 6100rpm
531 lb-ft @ 2600-4000 rpm

SL600 base msrp $132.775
0-60 mph - 4.4 sec.
510 hp @5000 rpm
612 lb.-ft @ 1900-3500 rpm

SL65 base msrp $186,775
0-60 mph - 4.2 sec.
604 hp @4800 rpm
738 lb-ft. @ 2000-4000 rpm

The SL65 & SL600 have better interior materials than the SL55 (better leather, alcantra lining), I know some mags have tested faster times than those numbers above, but basically, the SL65 have only a very slim performance gain(about 0.2 sec. 0-60mph) over the SL600 & SL55, yet it cost a whopping $57,200 over the SL55. I would say very few people can justify such an enormous price difference over what you get extra over the SL55 & SL600.
From a Value for $ perspective, it doesn't make much sense.Those people who get the SL65 are people who can & want the exclusivity, plus the satisfaction of owning the most expensive top of line model.

Similar prices & performances numbers for the S65 vs. S600, & CL65 vs CL600 . . .

encore888

^^^
Thanks for the data, excellent points

XeroK00L

For those who don't see the point of the LS600hL vs. the LS460L, you are not comparing apples to apples until:
1. The 2008/2009 LS460L AWD is released.
2. The EPA fuel economy figures for the LS460L AWD are released.
3. Magazines known for the best acceleration times (C&D, R&T) release their test figures for the LS600hL AND the LS460L AWD.

Trust me, there WILL be a significant gain in both performance and fuel economy for the LS600hL versus the 2008/2009 LS460L AWD. We just need to wait for those figures to come in.

I wish Lexus would also release a RWD version of the LS600hL just to shut up those people who are disappointed at the acceleration performance of the LS600hL AWD versus the LS460L RWD.

LexFather

Thank you, this is the point. If the Germans can do it and its "fine", why is it a big deal with Lexus when they attempt to do it?

LexFather

The point is, it is Corolla/Civic/Kia/etc competiton. Companies are forever trying to find ways to get buyers young and keeping them with the brand.

Lexus hasn't gone down to making econo cars, but they are going "up-market" in price, trying to retain buyers who leave Lexus to buy the Germans as their incomes rise.
Then you tell me why its worth more money than the M6 coupe, since that is what BMW charges for it and it seems to be "fine".

Threxx

0-60 is a near meaningless measure of performance once you get to that level of power, especially if you're limited to rear wheel drive. With that kind of power you could DOUBLE the SL65's horsepower and if you didn't find stickier tires and such to increase the traction, the 0-60 would be lucky to improve a tenth of a second under ideal conditions, and for the average driver would probably actually get worse because they wouldn't be able to harness that kind of power without just decimating the tires.

Post 1/4-mile times, 0-150 times, track times, etc - that's where you will appreciate the extra power of the SL65.

Because it costs a little more to build a convertible than it does to build a coupe. The M6 convertible is all of 5-6% more expensive than the coupe.

If Lexus comes out with a convertible IS and charges more for it, I don't think anyone here including me or you is going to be surprised that they are charging more for it.

It's not necessarily "better" - that's just a question of preference - do you like open air driving or would you just rather save your 5 grand and get the coupe?