OC 335d

0-60 isn't fair since the car is a post 100mph machine. 1/4 even would a better comparison. As far as Lexus going down to making econo cars, why would they need to? They have Toyota.

SL55 vs SL65
94 more hp
207 more lbs of torque.

Threxx

Not to mention the curve itself is so much flatter.

newr

50hp and ~900lbs of fat.... thanks but no thanks.

Gojirra99

You guys just mention the hp & torque of the SL65, of course they look fantastic if you don't have to pay for it with your money, but my point still stands regarding "VALUE", whether the SL65 is worth the huge price difference over the SL600 & SL55, here's one example below, you will find many similar sentiments if you google for other reviews on the SL65, S65 & CL65 (the con always mentioned being the huge price increase over their less powerful siblings).
Edmunds & a few other test reviews also mentioned that the SL55 feels lighter & more agile despite being slower, which actually can be more desirable overall for many enthusiasts(& you save $50K+ to boot), so power is not everything.

From :http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...-sl65-amg.html(full article with more statistics at the end)

LexFather

C&D (2003) 760 vs S 600
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...of-twelve.html

760 info from BMW themselves
http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7/760...n/techdata.htm
Weight
Unladen 4905 lbs

Weight distribution, front/rear 51.0/49.0 %

Engine
Liter/type 6.0/V-12

Bore/stroke 3.50/3.15 in

Nominal output/rpm 438 @ 6000 hp

Max torque @ rpm 444 @ 3950 lb-ft

Compression ratio 11.3 :1

Fuel grade Unleaded premium

Transmission
Automatic gear ratios - I/II/III 4.17/2.34/1.52 :1

Automatic gear ratios - IV/V/VI 1.14/0.87/0.69 :1

Automatic gear ratios - R 3.40 :1

Final drive ratio 3.15 :1

Performance
Acceleration, 0-60 mph 1 5.8 sec

Top speed 2 150 mph

Aerodynamic drag coefficient 0.29 Cd

Turning circle 41.3 ft

Fuel consumption 3
City/highway 14/22 mpg

Tires, wheels and brakes
Tire dimensions - Standard - front; rear 245/45R-19 Front; 275/40R-19 Rear5

Tire dimensions - No-cost option - front; rear 245/50R-18 Front; 245/50R-18 Rear4

Wheel dimensions - Standard - front; rear 19x9.0 Front; 19x10.0 Rear

Wheel dimensions - No-cost option - front; rear 18x8.0 Front; 18x8.0 Rear

Material alloy

Brake dimensions (diameter x thickness) - front; rear 13.7x1.18 Front; 13.6x0.94 Rear inch


http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7/750...n/techdata.htm





BMW 750 INFO FROM BMW THEMSELVES


http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7/750...n/techdata.htm

Weight

Unladen 4552 lbs

Weight distribution, front/rear 49.9/50.1 %

Engine
Liter/type 4.8/V-8

Bore/stroke 3.66/3.48 in

Nominal output @ rpm 360 @ 6300 hp

Max torque @ rpm 360 @ 3400 lb-ft

Compression ratio 10.5 :1

Fuel grade Unleaded premium

Transmission
Automatic ratios - I/II/III 4.17/2.34/1.52 :1

Automatic ratios - IV/V/VI 1.14/0.87/0.69 :1

Automatic ratios - R 3.40 :1

Final drive ratio 3.38 :1

Performance
Acceleration, 0-60 mph 1 5.8 sec

Top speed 2 150 mph

Aerodynamic drag coefficient 0.29 Cd

Turning circle 41.3 ft

Fuel consumption 3
city/highway 17/25

Tires, wheels and brakes
Tire dimensions - Standard - front 4 245/50R-18

Tire dimensions - Standard - rear 4 245/50R-18

Tire dimensions - Optional - front 5 245/45R-19

Tire dimensions - Optional - rear 5 275/40R-19

Tire dimensions - Sport Package - front 5 275/40R-20

Tire dimensions - Sport Package - rear 5 275/35R-20

Wheel dimensions -Standard - front 18 x 8.0

Wheel dimensions -Standard - rear 18 x 8.0

Wheel dimensions - Optional - front 19 x 9.0

Wheel dimensions - Optional - rear 19 x 10.0

Wheel dimensions - Sport Package - front 20 x 9.0

Wheel dimensions - Sport Package - rear 20 x 10.0

Wheel dimensions - Material alloy

Brake dimensions (diameter x thickness) - front 13.7 x 1.18 in

Brake dimensions (diameter x thickness) - rear 13.6 x 0.94 in

LexFather

Please explain:
760 costs 50k more than the 750
760 weighs nearly 400lbs more
760 gets the same 0-60 acceleration
760 gets worse gas mileage


Which leads me back to my point that prospective and owners of these cars DO NOT CARE about such things but DO CARE about having the CREAM OF THE CROP 760 badge over the 750 one.

Game, point, match!

encore888

Good points, good data.

It seems some are holding Lexus to a higher standard than its chief competition.

LexFather

I wanted to post Benz data but the site is down

newr

BMW is always conservative with their numbers.

from the same C&D link above
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...of-twelve.html

"Acceleration trailed the Benz’s by 0.8 second to 60 mph (arriving in a quick 5.1 seconds)... " This is real life data.

From C&D comparo.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...bmw-750li.html
750IL 0-60 in 5.7s. 1/4 mile in 14.2s. While the LS460L 0-60 in 6.2s and 1/4 in 14.6s.

from the same C&D link above
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...of-twelve.html

"Drop the hammer at any speed below 40 mph, and the brakes go to work controlling wheelspin as your neck muscles strain to keep your head level. The acceleration seems just shy of g-sled, cheek-flapping strong and is sufficient to whoosh the S600 to 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, to 100 in 9.7, and through the quarter in 12.5 at 115 mph. That’s neck and neck with a slightly racier 12-banger—the Ferrari 575M Maranello —and the Benz wins the drag race by a 10th! And that peak performance is gained by simply flooring the accelerator. No brake-torque or wheelspinning histrionics required."

Does the performance of the S600 completely destroy its sibbling V8? you betcha.
Does it fit the definition of a halo car? every words and we are not even talking about the AMG model.

Back to the 600h vs LS460L.
Does the performance of the 600h destroy the LS460L? Destroy? I don't think so. Faster? maybe... maybe not.
Is it a halo car? ...

Lexus builds the 600h to compete with the V12 competitors. Sorry but they have a LONG way to go but I give them a for their effort. Maybe next gen?

Again, I would pick the LS460L over the 600h in a heart beat unless I see MAJOR improvement done to the 600h.

LexFather

I'm done here.

STIG

Can't touch S600. They are super quick.

On the other hand, however, if you really care about performance, you wouldn't be in these big fat executive sedans anyway.

This is the way I see it.

S600, 760, and LS600hl are for those who have boat loads of money and just wanted to be different from another one in the crowd, and wanted to separate themselves from the crowd. In other words, there are for the reckless spender who would pay 50K more just to be different. Lexus is bring out the LS600hl, so that these elite reckless can be reckless and at the same time, they can have the feeling of being responsible to the environment.

Let's just be honest here. Data and numbers are good for comparison but really, do you really care about your big fat 6000lbs sedan with 405 computers reaching to 60mph .1 seconds faster?

I know I don't.

Like I said before, you buy these cars not because they provide the justifiable premium over the base version. You buy these cars just because you have so much money to waste and you buy these just because you can, and for the hell of it.

Vladi

S600 should "destroy" S550 because its a TWIN-TURBO V12! It also gets the worst mileage in the class.

Milla...

But isn't that what its suppose do and be, if your going to play the game then do it and do it big or step the crap away from the table and come back when your game is tight. If I'm going pay that kind of money big power is first gas is last.

TRDFantasy

No point in arguing further ... I think we all get the point that many of you believe the 600h is "not worth it", yet believe that the S65, 760, A8 W12 are all very worth it.

No point in stating the differences (for the millionth time) between 2007 and 2008 EPA figures, and the fact that the 460L is a 2007 model, and the 600h is a 2008 model.

No point in stating that the 600h has a unique front suspension not shared with the 460L. No point in stating that every review so far has commented on how the 600h has better handling and cornering abilities than the 460L.

I think a lot of us here on CL knew that the 600h would spark debate and criticism, simply because it's the first Lexus to exceed 100K USD. But it's surprising to see that the criticism is SO intense, and that it's so far away from the facts and the real differences between the 460L and 600h. Most surprising is this is on CL, and not any other forum.

OC 335d

Yes the criticism is SOOOO intense.

This has already been noted and most of the comments on gas mileage were made well before the autoweek article (as I have stated). Can we talk about cars instead of being overly defensive?