UPDATE: thecarconnection.com's First Drive of Lexus LS600hL(+Edmunds Full Test)
04-21-07, 11:06 AM
#46
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I still wish they offer it in RWD with less weight as well, that would make it a little more appealing for me, but I agree the LS600hL as it is now is not for everyone . . .
04-21-07, 11:17 AM
#48
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Do me a favor and make the point in your original response then, otherwise there was no point for me to miss. 
Edit: after reading back through the thread, an earlier post of your did state this, so my fault. I normally don't read through an entire thread before posting. Just not enough hours in the day for that. ;-)
Edit: after reading back through the thread, an earlier post of your did state this, so my fault. I normally don't read through an entire thread before posting. Just not enough hours in the day for that. ;-)
Last edited by ff_; 04-21-07 at 11:22 AM.
04-21-07, 02:42 PM
#49
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Overweight hog!!!
Please don't take this personal. IMHO, this car is a joke seriously! what a big disappointment comparing to the LS460L.
On paper it looks good, but when time to walk the walk, it comes up way too short. People think of Hybrid cars as fuel saving.. Nope, not this one ..It's not that better than the LS. Ok, so it was meant for performance with the bigger motor and 2 extra electric motors... oh wait.. what performance? It's does not even perform better than the LS. So..what are the improvements of this 600h over the LS? Nada, Zero, Zip... oh wait, it has leather dash and LED.. big deal..and it also comes with ~900 lbs of extra fat free of charge.
Those (many) who pre-ordered this this car expected fuel saving and performance are going to be in for a major shock.
I would take a LS460L over this overweight hog anyday. With the extra money, I could even get a Prius or Camry Hybrid.
Edmunds hit it right on the head that it's just "an interesting technological exercise"
On paper it looks good, but when time to walk the walk, it comes up way too short. People think of Hybrid cars as fuel saving.. Nope, not this one ..It's not that better than the LS. Ok, so it was meant for performance with the bigger motor and 2 extra electric motors... oh wait.. what performance? It's does not even perform better than the LS. So..what are the improvements of this 600h over the LS? Nada, Zero, Zip... oh wait, it has leather dash and LED.. big deal..and it also comes with ~900 lbs of extra fat free of charge.
Those (many) who pre-ordered this this car expected fuel saving and performance are going to be in for a major shock.
I would take a LS460L over this overweight hog anyday. With the extra money, I could even get a Prius or Camry Hybrid.
Edmunds hit it right on the head that it's just "an interesting technological exercise"
04-21-07, 03:05 PM
#50
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I am not in the market for this car but let me explain how this works, since so many are quick to beat up the car and have no idea how things work.
LS 600h L is a showcase. A SHOWCASE. When cars get to this price level, its about STATUS and PRESTIGE. Rarely do these cars race or speed on the highway. Rarely do they even have more than one person in them.
They are showcases (incredible ones) for the owner.
Thus the 750 becomes the 760, the S 550 becomes the S600 (or S63 S 65), the A8 V-8 becomes the A8 W-12. Those Germans with the V-12 are SHOWCASES as well.
They do not sell in large quantaties but they provide a huge HALO for the brand as being THE CREAM OF THE BRANDS CROP.
If anyone has noticed with the RX 400h and GS 450h, the MPG savings is offset with the performance gained. Its not a big jump in MPG, its not a big jump in performance but they are proving there is a way to "blend" the two.
Even I am shocked at the weight, but its a full blow luxury ride.
I need you all to get in arms about these cars that are SPORTS SEDANS and weigh too much.
550 is 4000 lbs
M45 is 4100lbs
E 500 is 4000 lbs
And the GS 450h HYBRID is 4200 lbs.
A 911 Turbo weighs 3500lbs, as much as a IS 350 or G35 sedan.
No one said a PEEP when the LS 430 weighed 3900 lbs, far less than the S/7/A8 (which is aluminum) and on par with cars in a lower class, an incredible feat.
If you want to whine about weight why does the ALL ALUMINUM A-8 weigh so much???????
LS 600h L is a showcase. A SHOWCASE. When cars get to this price level, its about STATUS and PRESTIGE. Rarely do these cars race or speed on the highway. Rarely do they even have more than one person in them.
They are showcases (incredible ones) for the owner.
Thus the 750 becomes the 760, the S 550 becomes the S600 (or S63 S 65), the A8 V-8 becomes the A8 W-12. Those Germans with the V-12 are SHOWCASES as well.
They do not sell in large quantaties but they provide a huge HALO for the brand as being THE CREAM OF THE BRANDS CROP.
If anyone has noticed with the RX 400h and GS 450h, the MPG savings is offset with the performance gained. Its not a big jump in MPG, its not a big jump in performance but they are proving there is a way to "blend" the two.
Even I am shocked at the weight, but its a full blow luxury ride.
I need you all to get in arms about these cars that are SPORTS SEDANS and weigh too much.
550 is 4000 lbs
M45 is 4100lbs
E 500 is 4000 lbs
And the GS 450h HYBRID is 4200 lbs.
A 911 Turbo weighs 3500lbs, as much as a IS 350 or G35 sedan.
No one said a PEEP when the LS 430 weighed 3900 lbs, far less than the S/7/A8 (which is aluminum) and on par with cars in a lower class, an incredible feat.
If you want to whine about weight why does the ALL ALUMINUM A-8 weigh so much???????
04-21-07, 03:14 PM
#51
If you want to whine about weight why does the ALL ALUMINUM A-8 weigh so much???????
They do not sell in large quantaties but they provide a huge HALO for the brand as being THE CREAM OF THE BRANDS CROP.
If anyone has noticed with the RX 400h and GS 450h, the MPG savings is offset with the performance gained. Its not a big jump in MPG, its not a big jump in performance but they are proving there is a way to "blend" the two
If anyone has noticed with the RX 400h and GS 450h, the MPG savings is offset with the performance gained. Its not a big jump in MPG, its not a big jump in performance but they are proving there is a way to "blend" the two
04-21-07, 04:06 PM
#52
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I need you all to get in arms about these cars that are SPORTS SEDANS and weigh too much.
550 is 4000 lbs
M45 is 4100lbs
E 500 is 4000 lbs
And the GS 450h HYBRID is 4200 lbs.
A 911 Turbo weighs 3500lbs, as much as a IS 350 or G35 sedan.
No one said a PEEP when the LS 430 weighed 3900 lbs, far less than the S/7/A8 (which is aluminum) and on par with cars in a lower class, an incredible feat.
If you want to whine about weight why does the ALL ALUMINUM A-8 weigh so much???????
550 is 4000 lbs
M45 is 4100lbs
E 500 is 4000 lbs
And the GS 450h HYBRID is 4200 lbs.
A 911 Turbo weighs 3500lbs, as much as a IS 350 or G35 sedan.
No one said a PEEP when the LS 430 weighed 3900 lbs, far less than the S/7/A8 (which is aluminum) and on par with cars in a lower class, an incredible feat.
If you want to whine about weight why does the ALL ALUMINUM A-8 weigh so much???????
If you think those cars abobe weight too much. Imagine driving around those heavy 4000lbs sedans with 4 sumo wrestlers weighting 400bls each... Yep, that is how much the 600h weights without the driver.
04-21-07, 04:17 PM
#53
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Bah, those aren't sport sedans.
Oh so now they are not sports sedans, even though every magazine calls them so.:p
AWD?
All A8s have AWD. The LS 600 has AWD. Its not the AWD.
What's the difference in MPG/Performance for the GS430 vs the GS450h? How much more does the GS450h weigh?
Off the top my head
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
Oh so now they are not sports sedans, even though every magazine calls them so.:p
AWD?
All A8s have AWD. The LS 600 has AWD. Its not the AWD.
What's the difference in MPG/Performance for the GS430 vs the GS450h? How much more does the GS450h weigh?
Off the top my head
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
04-21-07, 04:22 PM
#54
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That is true for the 400h and 450h but not with the 600h however, it gains nothing in those departments. They add the complicated Hybrid system to save fuel and they upgraded with the bigger motor + 2 electric motor for performance and it gains relatively NOTHING... It's like they take 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.. What is so HALO about that?
After a FEW reviews, I can come to a more solid conclusion. This is one review. One. The first one. Naysayers simply don't understand that life is more than adding more cylinders and more liters sometimes. That is not the answer to everyone.
Look at the Maybach. It weights almost 6000 lbs and still do 4.5s to 60. I know it's not fair to compare it to this car, but that is not the point. The point is that weight is not the problem. The problem is the power to weight ratio.
So now we are compaing a LS 600h L to a Maybach
Okay, it has what 6.5 liters and twin turbos. It is a car completely about excess. It also sells like crap and EVO dogged out the S model (more power, more supposed sport) for answering a dumb question no on asked. I agree with you 100%, it damn near defies physics with its acceleration. It also costs 3 TIMES as much as a LS 600h L. 3 times.
If you think those cars abobe weight too much. Imagine driving around those heavy 4000lbs sedans with 4 sumo wrestlers weighting 400bls each... Yep, that is how much the 600h weights without the driver.
Hey, again, not disagreeing the car weighs A LOT. I am not arguing that at all. It weighs a lot!
After a FEW reviews, I can come to a more solid conclusion. This is one review. One. The first one. Naysayers simply don't understand that life is more than adding more cylinders and more liters sometimes. That is not the answer to everyone.
Look at the Maybach. It weights almost 6000 lbs and still do 4.5s to 60. I know it's not fair to compare it to this car, but that is not the point. The point is that weight is not the problem. The problem is the power to weight ratio.
So now we are compaing a LS 600h L to a Maybach
Okay, it has what 6.5 liters and twin turbos. It is a car completely about excess. It also sells like crap and EVO dogged out the S model (more power, more supposed sport) for answering a dumb question no on asked. I agree with you 100%, it damn near defies physics with its acceleration. It also costs 3 TIMES as much as a LS 600h L. 3 times. If you think those cars abobe weight too much. Imagine driving around those heavy 4000lbs sedans with 4 sumo wrestlers weighting 400bls each... Yep, that is how much the 600h weights without the driver.
Hey, again, not disagreeing the car weighs A LOT. I am not arguing that at all. It weighs a lot!
04-21-07, 04:37 PM
#55
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About the weights of a LS600hL & LS460L, Edmunds must have compared the car they tested(which they listed at 5219 lb.) with the weight of the LS460L listed on Lexus.com, which is 4332 lb., thus, an almost 900 lb. weight difference.
Yet Car & Driver's preproduction LS460L which they tested was listed as 4700 lb., I suppose 4332lb. is the curb weight of the base LS460L that's listed on lexus.com, & that it can get 2-300+lb. heavier with the extra options, especially loaded with the executive package, so we are not exactly sure how much more a comparably equipped LS600hL reaaly weigh over a 460L. Also,the 600hL only **** option adds extra weight too (about 90lb. for the 450h IIRC). So we can't really trust everything these articles stated, & yes I agree we should wait for a few more other reviews & tests before we can draw some more definate conclusions Regarding performance, the hybrid is supposed to excel at rolling aceleration like 50-70 etc. , so I would like to see more tested data on that.
I still say I prefer the 600hL in RWD if possible . . .
Yet Car & Driver's preproduction LS460L which they tested was listed as 4700 lb., I suppose 4332lb. is the curb weight of the base LS460L that's listed on lexus.com, & that it can get 2-300+lb. heavier with the extra options, especially loaded with the executive package, so we are not exactly sure how much more a comparably equipped LS600hL reaaly weigh over a 460L. Also,the 600hL only **** option adds extra weight too (about 90lb. for the 450h IIRC). So we can't really trust everything these articles stated, & yes I agree we should wait for a few more other reviews & tests before we can draw some more definate conclusions Regarding performance, the hybrid is supposed to excel at rolling aceleration like 50-70 etc. , so I would like to see more tested data on that.
I still say I prefer the 600hL in RWD if possible . . .
Last edited by Gojirra99; 04-21-07 at 05:48 PM.
04-21-07, 04:42 PM
#56
Thanks Sick! So basically, it's not the AWD (I stand corrected), I don't view them as Sports Sedans although magazines may view them so, and the GS430/450h mpg is much more than the LS.
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
These mpg estimates seem more noticeable than 1-2 mpg to me.
It will be a nice car and obviously it is already selling well, I just think it looks like it could've been better. For people who actually look at the numbers, 1-2 mpg??? Good concept, poorly executed. Excuse me for expecting more out of Lexus and their flagship. I don't see any point of a Hybrid if it doesn't offer improved performance or a noticeable mpg, regardless of brand.
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
These mpg estimates seem more noticeable than 1-2 mpg to me.
It will be a nice car and obviously it is already selling well, I just think it looks like it could've been better. For people who actually look at the numbers, 1-2 mpg??? Good concept, poorly executed. Excuse me for expecting more out of Lexus and their flagship. I don't see any point of a Hybrid if it doesn't offer improved performance or a noticeable mpg, regardless of brand.
04-21-07, 04:47 PM
#57
The question is whether those are 2007 or 2008 estimates for comparison between the LS 460 L vs. LS 600h L. The testing method changed for 2008. The LS 600h L is a 2008 model, the LS 460 L is a 2007 one.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specia...6/article.html
The current LS 460 L numbers are under the old testing method, IIRC.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specia...6/article.html
The current LS 460 L numbers are under the old testing method, IIRC.
04-21-07, 05:05 PM
#58
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Thanks Sick! So basically, it's not the AWD (I stand corrected), I don't view them as Sports Sedans although magazines may view them so, and the GS430/450h mpg is much more than the LS.
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
These mpg estimates seem more noticeable than 1-2 mpg to me.
It will be a nice car and obviously it is already selling well, I just think it looks like it could've been better. For people who actually look at the numbers, 1-2 mpg??? Good concept, poorly executed. Excuse me for expecting more out of Lexus and their flagship. I don't see any point of a Hybrid if it doesn't offer improved performance or a noticeable mpg, regardless of brand.
GS 430 3750 lbs, 18 city, 24 hwy
GS 450h 4200 lbs 28 city, 27 hwy
These mpg estimates seem more noticeable than 1-2 mpg to me.
It will be a nice car and obviously it is already selling well, I just think it looks like it could've been better. For people who actually look at the numbers, 1-2 mpg??? Good concept, poorly executed. Excuse me for expecting more out of Lexus and their flagship. I don't see any point of a Hybrid if it doesn't offer improved performance or a noticeable mpg, regardless of brand.
No problem and I am not totally disagreeing with you about the car's assessment from Edmunds. Again, its the first one and let's see what others say, then we can better paint our picture.
04-21-07, 06:45 PM
#59
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We can only discuss what we have at hand and this one was disappointing. I am looking forward for more reviews to see what others have to say. This one was preproduction so hopefully Lexus will tweak a thing or two.
04-21-07, 10:52 PM
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