Winless Toyota Formula 1 Chief Calls It Quits
#16
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^^ That is why they get my respect even after season behind season of disappointment. When the victory finally does come it will be all the more sweeter.
The trick is TRD, they knew about the engine freeze, so they designed it with those parameters in mind as well...for operation at, and under 19,000 RPM![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
The trick is TRD, they knew about the engine freeze, so they designed it with those parameters in mind as well...for operation at, and under 19,000 RPM
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#17
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Yup. They get my respect because they started everything from scratch, and even now they don't want to rely on big name industry "experts" or using loads of money to hire away people from other teams. They want to learn everything and gain experience themselves. Such knowledge can be put to use in other motorsports, and can applied to production cars.
Don't get me wrong I still root for Toyota and Jarno. But it amazes me how they seem stuck in making forward progress. Honda is just
![Egads!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif)
As for drivers, let me just say that perhaps, just perhaps where Toyota is lacking is in drivers that can provide the feedback that the car is broken in such and such an area and then have the stature to back it up and have it fixed by the team (think Alonso at McLaren or Schumacher at Ferrari).
Last edited by Mr Johnson; 04-29-07 at 09:16 AM.
#18
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^^ That is why they get my respect even after season behind season of disappointment. When the victory finally does come it will be all the more sweeter.
The trick is TRD, they knew about the engine freeze, so they designed it with those parameters in mind as well...for operation at, and under 19,000 RPM![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
The trick is TRD, they knew about the engine freeze, so they designed it with those parameters in mind as well...for operation at, and under 19,000 RPM
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Yeah.... They designed it run poorly for a year because they knew the freeze was coming. I knew the freeze was coming too but that wouldn't have stopped me from building a beast to start with if I could.
Maybe I should lose at more things I do for a longer period of time so that when I finally win the victory will be so much sweeter. Someone should have told Schumacher that when he was winning the back to back titles.
#19
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1-Toyota started without Gascoyne
(though, they have made efforts to hire experienced ppl)
2-The engine didnt run poorly. It just was never run to 20k or 21k rpm like the other teams. where it failed was in reliability.
(though, they have made efforts to hire experienced ppl)
2-The engine didnt run poorly. It just was never run to 20k or 21k rpm like the other teams. where it failed was in reliability.
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Sorry missed this in my response above. I do see the smiley but...
Yeah.... They designed it run poorly for a year because they knew the freeze was coming. I knew the freeze was coming too but that wouldn't have stopped me from building a beast to start with if I could.
Maybe I should lose at more things I do for a longer period of time so that when I finally win the victory will be so much sweeter. Someone should have told Schumacher that when he was winning the back to back titles.
Yeah.... They designed it run poorly for a year because they knew the freeze was coming. I knew the freeze was coming too but that wouldn't have stopped me from building a beast to start with if I could.
Maybe I should lose at more things I do for a longer period of time so that when I finally win the victory will be so much sweeter. Someone should have told Schumacher that when he was winning the back to back titles.
![Big Grin](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Engine freeze date was not known up until last minute.
#21
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Yup. They get my respect because they started everything from scratch, and even now they don't want to rely on big name industry "experts" or using loads of money to hire away people from other teams. They want to learn everything and gain experience themselves. Such knowledge can be put to use in other motorsports, and can applied to production cars.
However at the same time, even if you hired main Ferrari designer, he wouldnt be able to get you to the same level - thats just impossible. You build on decades of experience.
Look at Renault - fastest last year, and 6th-7th fastest this year. This is sport where first 10 teams have over 150 million budgets and where top 6 teams have over 300 million budgets. And there is only one winner.
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They didn't start from scratch. They spent $$$ hiring Gascoyne specifically because they didn't want to start from scratch. It just turned out to be a bad decision. He focused on aero above all else. I'll explain why mechanical improved in 2005 below. As for giving them respect, I respect them for spending as much as they do without results and sticking with F1. I don't respect them for not shaking things up more dramatically as a result of the lack of form.
Originally Posted by Mr Johnson
This is a Toyota biased forum so you are going to see more comments about Toyota. Honda is a laughing stock right now and I don't think you'll see anyone defending them. McLaren didn't get a single win but that goes with the ups and downs of F1. McLaren has had the ups so one year of downs is not immediate cause for panic and they have bounced back dramatically. Toyota has yet to have a great year.
Don't get me wrong I still root for Toyota and Jarno. But it amazes me how they seem stuck in making forward progress. Honda is just
As for drivers, let me just say that perhaps, just perhaps where Toyota is lacking is in drivers that can provide the feedback that the car is broken in such and such an area and then have the stature to back it up and have it fixed by the team (think Alonso at McLaren or Schumacher at Ferrari).
Don't get me wrong I still root for Toyota and Jarno. But it amazes me how they seem stuck in making forward progress. Honda is just
![Egads!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif)
As for drivers, let me just say that perhaps, just perhaps where Toyota is lacking is in drivers that can provide the feedback that the car is broken in such and such an area and then have the stature to back it up and have it fixed by the team (think Alonso at McLaren or Schumacher at Ferrari).
#23
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They *did* start from scratch. The Toyota team was first created in 2000, and their debut season was 2002. Gascoyne was not hired until 2004. He didn't just focus on aero. More broadly, he focused on performance, at the cost of reliabiltiy.
Toyota had a good year in 2005. It wasn't great, but they did finish 4th in constructor's points, right behind Ferrari.
Toyota had a good year in 2005. It wasn't great, but they did finish 4th in constructor's points, right behind Ferrari.
The ended up beating Toyota by 12
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#24
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In 2004 they hired Gascoyne as well as some Ferrari engineers who were then accused of stealing the F2003GA design to help build the 2004 Toyota challenger. Don't care whether they did or didn't the point was that Toyota was trying to buy talent and not build it internally as some of you seem so keen to protest.
As for your reluctance to think that Gascoyne was too aero centric let me point this out...
Now the reliability may be referring to the 2006 challenger which was terrible but that year also saw the introduction of a new V8 engine formula. I don't think that new cooling/packaging requirements, new tires with a general lack of grip and the problems they had were a coincidence. Note how they did pick up the pace as the Bridgestones improved towards the end of the year.
of course they hired a lot of experts, but most of the team was from their own ranks, since they had big WRC operation going on.
However at the same time, even if you hired main Ferrari designer, he wouldnt be able to get you to the same level - thats just impossible. You build on decades of experience.
Look at Renault - fastest last year, and 6th-7th fastest this year. This is sport where first 10 teams have over 150 million budgets and where top 6 teams have over 300 million budgets. And there is only one winner.
However at the same time, even if you hired main Ferrari designer, he wouldnt be able to get you to the same level - thats just impossible. You build on decades of experience.
Look at Renault - fastest last year, and 6th-7th fastest this year. This is sport where first 10 teams have over 150 million budgets and where top 6 teams have over 300 million budgets. And there is only one winner.
I'm not a Toyota hater (Except for the fact that they have taken a great racetrack, Suzuka, away from us). I just can't believe how much money they have wasted for the results they have achieved.
I'll be curious to see how Gascoyne does at Spyker. I'm sure he will provide aero improvements for them but as they improve I'll be keen to see what sort of mechanical grip his cars exhibit.
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Going into the year they should have had a kick-butt motor. It was pretty clear that the motor they were going to submit would have to complete two full race weekends by the season ender in Brazil. That's one of the reasons why Renault left Alonso on the lower spec engine for Brazil. It was more 'known' and thus less likely to blow but they needed Fisi on the new motor to make the two race rule.
Now I don't know what went on the technical delegates meetings behind the scenes but they knew for plenty long enough when those engines would be frozen.
To claim that the Toyota motor didn't run poorly as MR_F1 did just because their motor didn't spin 20K, 21K or more seems silly. If they could have gotten their motor to rev that high they would have. More RPM is more HP and though engine mapping matters to provide TQ out of the corners, I can't imagine a single team purposely leaving 1K or 2K RPM on the development table. IMO compared to other motors of that time it did run poorly whether it was reliable or not (which it wasn't).
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I would disagree with that. Yeah you need a good car that's set up right, you need reliability, and you need efficient pit crews. But the driver makes a big difference. A driver that gets on and off the gas properly, who can consistently take the correct path through the corners and at the maximum speed, and who can predict the actions of other drivers and use the results of every interaction to their best advantage... is going to be standing on the podium far more often than anyone else.
#27
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I would disagree with that. Yeah you need a good car that's set up right, you need reliability, and you need efficient pit crews. But the driver makes a big difference. A driver that gets on and off the gas properly, who can consistently take the correct path through the corners and at the maximum speed, and who can predict the actions of other drivers and use the results of every interaction to their best advantage... is going to be standing on the podium far more often than anyone else.
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If you want to cheer them for that go ahead but I simply see it as waste of resources that could have been better applied.
In 2004 they hired Gascoyne as well as some Ferrari engineers who were then accused of stealing the F2003GA design to help build the 2004 Toyota challenger. Don't care whether they did or didn't the point was that Toyota was trying to buy talent and not build it internally as some of you seem so keen to protest.
As for your reluctance to think that Gascoyne was too aero centric let me point this out...
In 2004 they hired Gascoyne as well as some Ferrari engineers who were then accused of stealing the F2003GA design to help build the 2004 Toyota challenger. Don't care whether they did or didn't the point was that Toyota was trying to buy talent and not build it internally as some of you seem so keen to protest.
As for your reluctance to think that Gascoyne was too aero centric let me point this out...
Toyota initially thought that getting talent from other teams was the way to go, but they quickly realized that was the wrong approach. Again, this all goes back to experience. Toyota is now taking a more focused approach, and trying to learn everything themselves. If you've noticed, Toyota is not hiring any other big names and is sticking with what they got, because they understand that all they lack is experience.
Originally Posted by Mr Johnson
Exactly right. But where I have my problem with Toyota is that they have not won or even been in the top 3 teams yet. Renault gets a pass for a bad year when they just finished winning back-to-back championships. Toyota doesn't.
I'm not a Toyota hater (Except for the fact that they have taken a great racetrack, Suzuka, away from us). I just can't believe how much money they have wasted for the results they have achieved.
I'll be curious to see how Gascoyne does at Spyker. I'm sure he will provide aero improvements for them but as they improve I'll be keen to see what sort of mechanical grip his cars exhibit.
I'm not a Toyota hater (Except for the fact that they have taken a great racetrack, Suzuka, away from us). I just can't believe how much money they have wasted for the results they have achieved.
I'll be curious to see how Gascoyne does at Spyker. I'm sure he will provide aero improvements for them but as they improve I'll be keen to see what sort of mechanical grip his cars exhibit.
Again, you criticize Toyota for "wasting" money and resources, because you don't know the full story and don't realize where exactly all that money was spent. It was not "wasted" at all. Most of that money was used to initially set-up Toyota's F1 effort.
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