Och

iTrader: (3)

So you're saying that all drivers in Europe are sophisticated and prefer firm ride and handling over space and luxury? Give me a break. They must all be cocky males in early 20ies, there must be no females, no elderly people, and they must not have kids. And about European crapboxes, well, have you seen what they drive? The cars over there are very much like Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit, and I don't know about design or engineering standpoint, to me they seem like cheap crapboxes.


There are rich people everywhere that can afford top of the line luxury cars, but these people are too few. Lexus, and other luxury makers, bread and butter is upper middle class. In USA anyone in the upper middle class is able to afford payments on Lexus entry level models, but that's not the case in Europe. Add high gas prices into the mix, and situation is even worse. Europe is just not a very good market for Luxury makers, and thats why BMW sells lower end models, like 120D, that basically can't hold a candle to our Civics and Corollas, and even the 7 series is available with either 3.0 or 3.5 diesel engine. Does 730D really qualify as a luxury flagship when USDM V6 Camry can run circles around it?

Well, that's true, its going to be very hard for them to compete in Europe because the market for true Luxury cars over there is very limited, and Lexus can start introducing cheaper models to compete with the likes of 1 series, A class, A3, etc, but I doubt that Lexus is going to compromise their image by selling crapboxes. As of now, selling 50K cars a year I think Lexus is already fairly succesful. Of course, BMW sells 12x as many, but lets now forget that BMW has a lot more models in Europe as well as bigger dealer network, more engine choices, and of course, the cheaper models that compete with Toyota and Scion, not with Lexus. If you compare Lexus sold directly againt competing BMW models sold, for instance GS350 vs 530, IS350 vs 335, LS460 vs 750, etc, the difference may not be that great.

Big Andy

I can assure you BMW IS looked upon as a luxury maker in Europe. There are three main aspirational brands in the UK and Europe and they are Mercedes, BMW and Audi (I'm obviously not counting the likes of RR, Bentley, Aston etc.) Jaguar creep in there to some extent and then VW and Honda head a list that includes Ford, Citroen, GM, FIAT, Toyota, Renault, etc. Lexus still struggle for an identity and are seen as 'posh' Toyotas - if recognised at all.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, see you like the TSX and I think it's a gutless POS. I don't know if what I said exactly describes the typical American buyer, because these days sports sedans like the TSX are a dollar a bucket, but at least here in America we have a choice. You like the sporty, firm ride, you can get the Euro Accord, aka TSX. I like cushy ride and space, I can get the Accord. In Europe, its either the TSX or nothing at all.

This is where I disagree. Think about it, right now we have an outbreak of sports sedans here in the US, even Caddy and Lexus are making their cars sportier and sporties. Ask yourself, why is that happening? I think it's because the American public got bored of all the car companies making only big, softly spung cars for god knows how many generations, and people want something different. On the contrary, the European public was stuck with only firm riding, small cars with manual trannies, so they wouldn't mind spacy, luxury rides with automatics. This is why the RX is doing so well over there.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Is 120D or 316 really luxury?

TRDFantasy

I doubt that an A Class or a 1 Series is seen as "luxury" in the eyes of European buyers, or people who take rides in C-Class taxis. Toyota simply wants Lexus to be clearly differentiated from Toyotas.

Och

iTrader: (3)

In any case, back to the topic here. I think that Infiniti does have a great potential in Europe. According to many of the posters here, European drivers are a lot more "sophisticated" than American drivers, and demand higher design and engineering levers in their vehicles. So, unlike American drivers they must be able to see past the badge, and realize that at least the G35, that sells for less than a 328, is a much superior car, and it must sell in droves.

Big Andy

Are we? The reason BMW sells so many gutless 318s and 116s is because many Europeans are very badge conscious and would rather have a cardboard box on their driveway with a BMW badge on it than a Nissan however you brand it. Even BMW 1-series and low spec 3-series are seen as premium small cars and people want them. The best selling car in the UK used to be the ordinary Ford Mondeo - now the BMW 3-series outsells the Mondeo.

spwolf

Well few things to note:
1. Nissans are not big in Europe. Infiniti's will struggle.
2. BMW is huge in Europe - but they sell a lot of "almost" mass market cars. 70% of 3 series sold in Germany are sold to Fleets, at average of 30% discount (same goes for Passats and MB).

So while Lexus will look to up sales in Europe (afterall Lexus doesnt have many dealerships right now, especially outside of main 3-4 countries), they wont ever come close to BMW/Audi sales since they will never compete in every market those brands compete. But thats also Lexus's chance - to appear more luxury oriented...

Infiniti - I dont know where they would start - SUV's sure, but paying premium for unknown brand, I am not so sure... Nissan sales are in free fall right now in Europe.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Doesn't Nissan have Renault's backing, and Renault is pretty big in Europe?

LexFather

Renault is big in Europe but sales and market share are dropping. Infiniti will use a new Renault diesel in 2010 for Europe.