Why I feel like it might be better to move the ES and RX to a Lexus dedicated chassis
06-03-07, 10:34 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Umm, but the RX and ES also continue and have always won awards for quality.
If Lexus is selling 110k RXs and 70k ESs off a Camry platform and the majority of people are happy, well, I don't see why spin off another platform.
No car's quality will be perfect, not even Lexus. The ES and RX I had were just as reliable as the SC and GS, the only difference is build quality, you can tell the ES and RX are simply not as expensive vehicles.
Reliability of them all were equal to one another.
If Lexus is selling 110k RXs and 70k ESs off a Camry platform and the majority of people are happy, well, I don't see why spin off another platform.
No car's quality will be perfect, not even Lexus. The ES and RX I had were just as reliable as the SC and GS, the only difference is build quality, you can tell the ES and RX are simply not as expensive vehicles.
Reliability of them all were equal to one another.
06-03-07, 11:20 AM
#17
My point is that both cars seem to suffer from more problems than the rest of the lineup, and both share a platform with the Camry...which has seen it's fair share of quality problems over the last few years.
Is it a coincidence? Probably not.
Is it a coincidence? Probably not.
06-03-07, 12:09 PM
#18
Super Moderator
GX is a bigger than I want. Same issue with something like the modern Pathfinder, some people I know ditched it due to its size and went straight to the Murano. What I need is something about the size of my RX300, but more durability in its suspension. Haven't found it, but that is a reason why I continue to modify my current RX.
06-03-07, 12:44 PM
#20
Super Moderator
06-03-07, 12:46 PM
#21
BTW, does anyone know the exact chassis arrangements of the entire Lexus lineup?
I seem to recall that the IS/GS now share their chassis...does it have a specific code?
The LS has its own chassis...shared with no other right?
I seem to recall that the IS/GS now share their chassis...does it have a specific code?
The LS has its own chassis...shared with no other right?
06-03-07, 01:27 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
GX is a bigger than I want. Same issue with something like the modern Pathfinder, some people I know ditched it due to its size and went straight to the Murano. What I need is something about the size of my RX300, but more durability in its suspension. Haven't found it, but that is a reason why I continue to modify my current RX.
The GX470 is only 2.0 inches longer and 1.4 inches wider than the RX.
The only significant difference is the height - the GX sits 8 inches higher at the roof (66 inches vs 74). And of course, the weight - but you didn't mention the weight being an issue.
Seems like you could over look a couple inches here and there in size if it gave you a real truck to drive hard on bad roads and off road journeys?
Your friends who went with the Murano over the Pathfinder make even less sense. They're exactly the same length, and the Murano is actually just over an inch wider than the Pathfinder (opposite of the reason they gave), and again in this case the only real difference is the height, where the Pathfinder sits 6 inches higher up at the top than the Murano.
06-03-07, 01:36 PM
#23
Super Moderator
Its size?
The GX470 is only 2.0 inches longer and 1.4 inches wider than the RX.
The only significant difference is the height - the GX sits 8 inches higher at the roof (66 inches vs 74). And of course, the weight - but you didn't mention the weight being an issue.
Seems like you could over look a couple inches here and there in size if it gave you a real truck to drive hard on bad roads and off road journeys?
Your friends who went with the Murano over the Pathfinder make even less sense. They're exactly the same length, and the Murano is actually just over an inch wider than the Pathfinder (opposite of the reason they gave), and again in this case the only real difference is the height, where the Pathfinder sits 6 inches higher up at the top than the Murano.
The GX470 is only 2.0 inches longer and 1.4 inches wider than the RX.
The only significant difference is the height - the GX sits 8 inches higher at the roof (66 inches vs 74). And of course, the weight - but you didn't mention the weight being an issue.
Seems like you could over look a couple inches here and there in size if it gave you a real truck to drive hard on bad roads and off road journeys?
Your friends who went with the Murano over the Pathfinder make even less sense. They're exactly the same length, and the Murano is actually just over an inch wider than the Pathfinder (opposite of the reason they gave), and again in this case the only real difference is the height, where the Pathfinder sits 6 inches higher up at the top than the Murano.
06-03-07, 01:45 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
There is a big difference in the way a Murano and a Pathfinder handle, along with a GX and an RX. I had issues with the way the last MDX handled when I originally tested that out, felt like I was driving a tank. However, my RX300, even though it has its drawbacks, it is about as close to perfection as I have found.
If I really was busting up a lot of suspension components going offroad I think I'd personally get a new Chevy Avalanche Z71 4x4. Though that's of course not sporty - though they do ride very comfortably, IMO (for a BOF truck chassis, anyway)
06-03-07, 01:53 PM
#25
Pole Position
It seems like the vehicles that have had the least amount of problems over time, are the Lexus-dedicated ones: SC, LS, GS, and IS. The two based off the Camry chassis- RX and ES, seem to really have their share of issues (mostly in the first two or three model years) morseo than the others. The GX and LX have had their share of troubles, but both have been pretty solid after their first model years and continue to be very reliable.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
GS/IS/LS : made in Tahara plant, the crown jewel factory of Toyota, the only platinum rated factory in the world in terms of vehicle defects.
ES/RX : Canada/US plants? Still Toyota plants to be sure but not quite as highly rated as Tahara.
06-03-07, 01:55 PM
#26
from JDM Wiki
Originally Posted by JDM wiki
* LS
プレステージ・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・セルシオとして販売されていた。
(Prestige luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Celsior in Japan)
LS460L
LS460（USF40）★
LS600hL ★
LS600h ★
* GS
パフォーマンス・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・アリストとして販売されていた。
(Performance luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Aristo in Japan)
GS450h（GWS190）★
GS430 （UZS190）★
GS350 （GRS191）★
GS300
* ES
ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・ウィンダムとして販売されていた。
(luxury sedan. was sold as Toyota Windom in Japan)
ES350（GSV40）
* IS
スポーツ・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・アルテッツァとして販売されていた。
(Sports luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Altezza in Japan)
IS350 （GSE21）★
IS300
IS250 （GSE20）★
IS220d
[編集] クーペ
(coupe)
* SC
ラグジュアリー・クーペ・コンパーチブル。レクサス開業以前の日本では、トヨタ・ソアラとして販売されていた。
(luxury coupe/convertible. Sold as Toyota Soarer before the installment of Lexus brand in Japan)
SC430 （UZZ40）★
[編集] SUV
* LX
プレミアム・ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。日本では、トヨタ・ランドクルーザーシグナスとして販売されている。
(Premium luxury utility vehicle. Is sold as Toyota Land Cruiser Cygnus in Japan)
LX470（UZJ100）
* GX
ミッドサイズ・ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。北米以外では、ベース車種であるトヨタ・ランドクルーザープラドが販売されている
(midsize luxury utility vehicle. Sold as Toyota Land Cruiser Prado besides NA)
GX470（UZJ120）
* RX
ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。日本では、トヨタ・ハリアーとして販売されている。
(luxury utility vehicle. Sold as Toyota Harrier in Japan)
RX400h（MHU38）
RX350 （GSU30）
プレステージ・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・セルシオとして販売されていた。
(Prestige luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Celsior in Japan)
LS460L
LS460（USF40）★
LS600hL ★
LS600h ★
* GS
パフォーマンス・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・アリストとして販売されていた。
(Performance luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Aristo in Japan)
GS450h（GWS190）★
GS430 （UZS190）★
GS350 （GRS191）★
GS300
* ES
ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・ウィンダムとして販売されていた。
(luxury sedan. was sold as Toyota Windom in Japan)
ES350（GSV40）
* IS
スポーツ・ラグジュアリーセダン。先代モデルまでが、日本ではトヨタ・アルテッツァとして販売されていた。
(Sports luxury sedan. Was sold as Toyota Altezza in Japan)
IS350 （GSE21）★
IS300
IS250 （GSE20）★
IS220d
[編集] クーペ
(coupe)
* SC
ラグジュアリー・クーペ・コンパーチブル。レクサス開業以前の日本では、トヨタ・ソアラとして販売されていた。
(luxury coupe/convertible. Sold as Toyota Soarer before the installment of Lexus brand in Japan)
SC430 （UZZ40）★
[編集] SUV
* LX
プレミアム・ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。日本では、トヨタ・ランドクルーザーシグナスとして販売されている。
(Premium luxury utility vehicle. Is sold as Toyota Land Cruiser Cygnus in Japan)
LX470（UZJ100）
* GX
ミッドサイズ・ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。北米以外では、ベース車種であるトヨタ・ランドクルーザープラドが販売されている
(midsize luxury utility vehicle. Sold as Toyota Land Cruiser Prado besides NA)
GX470（UZJ120）
* RX
ラグジュアリー・ユーティリティー・ビークル。日本では、トヨタ・ハリアーとして販売されている。
(luxury utility vehicle. Sold as Toyota Harrier in Japan)
RX400h（MHU38）
RX350 （GSU30）
06-03-07, 01:56 PM
#27
Lexus Champion
The chassis code on the old (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) gen LS was UCF#0 (#=gen)
The new LS chassis is called the USF40-series. And as a family is described as an "S-series" chassis.
The 3rd gen GS430 is called the UZS190, and the SC430 is called the UZZ40
The GS is still referred to as the "S-series" family
The current IS I think is called the GSE20, and again is considered an "S-series" family.
So it would seem the IS, GS, and LS all share the roots of their chassis design with each other. The SC appears to be the "Z-series" which isn't used by anything else at the moment.
I think the IS and GS S-series chassis have more in common than the GS does with the LS, even though they're all based off the same global platform in their roots.
06-03-07, 03:00 PM
#29
Super Moderator
Heh... so you want a sporty comfortable ride with heavy duty suspension? I don't think that combo exists. Yet... anyway.
If I really was busting up a lot of suspension components going offroad I think I'd personally get a new Chevy Avalanche Z71 4x4. Though that's of course not sporty - though they do ride very comfortably, IMO (for a BOF truck chassis, anyway)
If I really was busting up a lot of suspension components going offroad I think I'd personally get a new Chevy Avalanche Z71 4x4. Though that's of course not sporty - though they do ride very comfortably, IMO (for a BOF truck chassis, anyway)
06-03-07, 04:37 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
Umm, but the RX and ES also continue and have always won awards for quality.
No car's quality will be perfect, not even Lexus. The ES and RX I had were just as reliable as the SC and GS, the only difference is build quality, you can tell the ES and RX are simply not as expensive vehicles.
No car's quality will be perfect, not even Lexus. The ES and RX I had were just as reliable as the SC and GS, the only difference is build quality, you can tell the ES and RX are simply not as expensive vehicles.
And you are correct about the RX. Camry platform or not, it has been a gem from Day One....as long as you keep the oil changed in the 3.0L V6, of course. I seriously considered an RX330 when I bought my AWD Outback, but felt that, for my purposes, the Outback offered nearly as much for a lot less money.