Why I feel like it might be better to move the ES and RX to a Lexus dedicated chassis
06-02-07, 08:10 AM
#1
Why I feel like it might be better to move the ES and RX to a Lexus dedicated chassis
It seems like the vehicles that have had the least amount of problems over time, are the Lexus-dedicated ones: SC, LS, GS, and IS. The two based off the Camry chassis- RX and ES, seem to really have their share of issues (mostly in the first two or three model years) morseo than the others. The GX and LX have had their share of troubles, but both have been pretty solid after their first model years and continue to be very reliable.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
06-02-07, 08:54 AM
#4
Lexus Champion
Before the TOYOTA Prius came out the most reliable vehicle on the road was the Corolla. This was partly due to not having 2 many electrical interior functions that u find on more expensive cars, but the Corolla is a great design. Look @ the Chevy Cobalt, about the same interior amenities as the Corolla yet it has horrible reliability(actually 1 of the LEAST reliable vehicles on the road lol). The I4 Camry has been amazing as well. Lexus will continue to share the platforms to save $ and i think its a good idea. Toyota/ Lexus do need to work on some recent reliabilty issues though.
Last edited by JAC JZS; 06-02-07 at 09:05 AM.
06-02-07, 09:19 AM
#5
You guys raise a good point in the fact that cars are far more complex now than they have been in the past, but the problems that Toyota is having are not being caused my electronics. Faulty transmissions, rattles, and poor interior quality are unrelated to any sort of electronics, which is an area where our cars are still superior IMO.
The Camrys and things that you all talk about, are far less complex and much less advanced than your GS's.
The Camrys and things that you all talk about, are far less complex and much less advanced than your GS's.
06-02-07, 10:40 AM
#6
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You guys raise a good point in the fact that cars are far more complex now than they have been in the past, but the problems that Toyota is having are not being caused my electronics. Faulty transmissions, rattles, and poor interior quality are unrelated to any sort of electronics, which is an area where our cars are still superior IMO.
The Camrys and things that you all talk about, are far less complex and much less advanced than your GS's.
The Camrys and things that you all talk about, are far less complex and much less advanced than your GS's.
My mom's Camry has something like 260,000kms on it, my GS had 200,000kms when I got rid of it and the GS had more things wrong with it. That's not even the real problem though, the GS cost so much more to maintain it was ridiculous. Paying $1000 for a starter, $1000 for a timing belt/waterpump change, $200-300 for a single door actuator, etc. is ridiculous
06-02-07, 10:46 AM
#7
Super Moderator
My RX300 takes a lot more abuse than it would in the U.S. and I have had my share of broken shocks, suspension pieces damaged, squeaks, rattles, etc. The streets here are not the only culprit, and I take responsibility for my driving habits.
Camrys have been on the road officially here since 2002, when Toyota opened its doors, and I know of people who have encountered suspensions issues more, though not much more, than in the U.S.
Still, I would like to see a little more truck and less car in the newer RXs and leave more of the car part to vehicles like the RAV4.
Camrys have been on the road officially here since 2002, when Toyota opened its doors, and I know of people who have encountered suspensions issues more, though not much more, than in the U.S.
Still, I would like to see a little more truck and less car in the newer RXs and leave more of the car part to vehicles like the RAV4.
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06-02-07, 10:51 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
I wouldn't. If you need a truck-based SUV, you need to get the GX. I'm betting the GX or a 4runner would suit your driving habits and local far better - and with far fewer things broken or worn out.
06-02-07, 11:12 AM
#9
I would like to see the ES moved off on to a separate platform if its mission profile can be resolved in a specific direction (RWD? competing with GS or what?). I think there is a definite valid point in that Lexus-only designs seem to have more attention lavished on them as Lexus models.
Next up is the new RX. Compared to the very Camry-similar ES 350 (under the skin), I've always felt the RX was more different, and more Lexus-like. Plus the segment that the RX created is now a lot more competitive, while the ES 350 has the 'comfort luxury' segment largely to itself now. Hopefully the RX will continue to set the standard when it comes out.
Next up is the new RX. Compared to the very Camry-similar ES 350 (under the skin), I've always felt the RX was more different, and more Lexus-like. Plus the segment that the RX created is now a lot more competitive, while the ES 350 has the 'comfort luxury' segment largely to itself now. Hopefully the RX will continue to set the standard when it comes out.
06-02-07, 12:01 PM
#12
Lexus Champion
I'd think the IS/GS (same basic platform) chassis would be great for the RX, as well.
I think that would cause issues though because you know then they'd want the highlander to be on that same platform, too. Plus, they've already got the stretched Camry platform setup with the Highlander and Sienna - they would have to do extra work to get the IS/GS platform setup for the appropriate dimensions for the RX...
06-02-07, 01:25 PM
#13
Hmm.. our 00 Corolla LE was very reliable. Our 02 Camry was good but not as solid as the Corolla. We had A/C issues (turned out to be a faulty wire), a squeaking moonroof, squeaking driver's seatbelt clip receiver, each of the rear taillight bulb + the CHMSL have blown out within the basic warranty period (with the left taillight blown twice) and of course the simple recall on early production 02s regarding the plastic washer fluid buoy (that tells the computer when the washer fluid level is low).
Out of warranty issues, well it might be due to age since the Camry was the car we've put the most mileage on ever (106,000kms before a taxi took its life). The power driver's seat developed some "give" so I could sorta "rock" the seat.
Despite that, I thought the 02 Camry was awesome. All the luxuries you could ask for (we had the XLE model) but at a reasonable price.
Out of warranty issues, well it might be due to age since the Camry was the car we've put the most mileage on ever (106,000kms before a taxi took its life). The power driver's seat developed some "give" so I could sorta "rock" the seat.
Despite that, I thought the 02 Camry was awesome. All the luxuries you could ask for (we had the XLE model) but at a reasonable price.
06-03-07, 10:04 AM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
It seems like the vehicles that have had the least amount of problems over time, are the Lexus-dedicated ones: SC, LS, GS, and IS. The two based off the Camry chassis- RX and ES, seem to really have their share of issues (mostly in the first two or three model years) morseo than the others. The GX and LX have had their share of troubles, but both have been pretty solid after their first model years and continue to be very reliable.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
IS/GS/LS/SC cars seem to have rather insignificant problems for the most part and many go on with 200,000+ trouble free miles in their lifetimes. The Land Cruiser and 4Runner have traditionally been some of the best engineered and best built vehicles in the world, so being based off them does not seem to be a disadvantage for their Lexus equivalents. The only thing I can conclude is that the Lexus level of R&D, manufacturing, and their standard for quality is much higher than average Toyotas, and this difference shows through when you look at the lifespan of different model ranges. That said, I know that the current range of cars are the first dedicated Lexus models, but the manufacturing standard for Celsiors, Soarers, Aristos, and Altezzas must have been much higher than it was for Camrys, Harriers, Hilux Surf, Avalons, and others. Not saying that the RX and ES are bad cars, but they certainly do not adhere to the same standard that the rest of the range does.
With Toyota's continued growth has unfortunately come a slight dip in quality. The interiors on some of their new models are not as good as they once were or could have been, and certain aspects seem to have been overlooked, perhaps because of a rush to market or poor product planning. They have vowed to lengthen product development times and in turn improve quality, but it doesn't seem like we can believe them. The 6AT on the Camry and ES have been terrible, and yet, they refuse to acknowledge the problem and have finally diagnosed it as normal behavior for this transmission. Let's not forget the ever present acceleration lag that many people have dealt with either. Tundra camshafts are snapping now. There are more rattles in Toyota products than there have ever been before, and dealers seem uninterested in trying to fix them.
This sort of arrogance and this lower corporate standard is not going to bode well for the ES and RX, and judging by the new ES 350, I think we have a good idea of what to expect. Considering that these two vehicles are the closest related to Toyota products, it gives them the greatest chance for Toyota-type problems to spread across into our product line. Literally, the RX and ES are the "Camrys" of the Lexus line- the cars that they simply churn out 100,000 of a year and that bring in most of the profit. It might sound stupid, but I would venture to say that there is more passion and more effort put into LS, GS, IS, and SC models than there is into the others, and this zeal basically makes them the best engineered and best quality cars on the market. For other models, Toyota hands Lexus their chassis and hardware and they have to work around that, effectively eliminating some of the input that Lexus has into it's own products at the cost of operating profit.
When looking at the Lexus line, and considering overall quality and longevity, I see it like this:
LS/GS/IS/SC
GX/LX
RX/ES
On the flip side, is it a matter of you get what you pay for? I would think not since an IS250 can be had for $32,000, and the ES and RX both start above that and reach into the 40 and 50K price brackets.
Just my .02 on all of this.
If Lexus is selling 110k RXs and 70k ESs off a Camry platform and the majority of people are happy, well, I don't see why spin off another platform.
No car's quality will be perfect, not even Lexus. The ES and RX I had were just as reliable as the SC and GS, the only difference is build quality, you can tell the ES and RX are simply not as expensive vehicles.
Reliability of them all were equal to one another.