What's wrong with the GS?
06-03-07, 07:42 PM
#1
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What's wrong with the GS?
I'm know this has been mentioned before in various threads, but I'm wondering what you guys think about the lagging sales of the GS. I noticed the LS is now outselling the GS by 33%. That's pretty unheard of in the luxury market. When does the flagship ever outsell the executive class?
Now I realize that the LS is a slightly newer model. But the GS is currently offering 3 different variants and the LS only 1, yet the LS is still outselling the GS. ES sales are very strong, and IS sales are also doing extremely well. So, the question is, where is the GS going wrong?
You don't see the MB S-class ever outsell the E-class. You don't ever see the BMW 7-series ever outsell the 5-series. You don't ever see the Audi A8 ever outsell the A6. So why is it that the LS is outselling the GS? Is it the styling? Is it just really off with the GS? Is it the lack of performance? Is the ES cannibalizing the GS because of it's similar technology and roominess?
I'm just curious as to what you guys think is the problem here. I know some of you will probably say that there is no problem with the GS sales, but honestly, compared to every other Lexus sedan, it's clearly underselling.
Do you suppose Lexus might introduce a new design sooner than 2012? I know typically Lexus likes to keep their designs the same for 6 model years, then do a redesign. Although I'm wondering if they might shorten that up a bit with the GS, considering it's slow sales.
Now I realize that the LS is a slightly newer model. But the GS is currently offering 3 different variants and the LS only 1, yet the LS is still outselling the GS. ES sales are very strong, and IS sales are also doing extremely well. So, the question is, where is the GS going wrong?
You don't see the MB S-class ever outsell the E-class. You don't ever see the BMW 7-series ever outsell the 5-series. You don't ever see the Audi A8 ever outsell the A6. So why is it that the LS is outselling the GS? Is it the styling? Is it just really off with the GS? Is it the lack of performance? Is the ES cannibalizing the GS because of it's similar technology and roominess?
I'm just curious as to what you guys think is the problem here. I know some of you will probably say that there is no problem with the GS sales, but honestly, compared to every other Lexus sedan, it's clearly underselling.
Do you suppose Lexus might introduce a new design sooner than 2012? I know typically Lexus likes to keep their designs the same for 6 model years, then do a redesign. Although I'm wondering if they might shorten that up a bit with the GS, considering it's slow sales.
06-03-07, 07:50 PM
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Why would they need to redesign if it was just released a year ago
peformance wise if 0-60 in 5.7 is not good then their is somthing wrong with you
The reason they are not selling well is because of the release of the 08 Gs460 sceduled later this year this is why the GS450h and GS350 sales are slower
some people pefer a v8 when they get in that proce range
Lexus wont redesign a vechicle just because of sales
just look at the LX470 inturduced in 1998 redesign in 2008
10 years and they sell little or more than 5k per year
take care guys
peformance wise if 0-60 in 5.7 is not good then their is somthing wrong with you
The reason they are not selling well is because of the release of the 08 Gs460 sceduled later this year this is why the GS450h and GS350 sales are slower
some people pefer a v8 when they get in that proce range
Lexus wont redesign a vechicle just because of sales
just look at the LX470 inturduced in 1998 redesign in 2008
10 years and they sell little or more than 5k per year
take care guys
06-03-07, 07:53 PM
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I personally think the GS lost its visual appeal (to me that is).
I love the way the 1st and 2nd gen look. Its a visually appealing car. When I see the new GS's going down the street......they dont strike me with head turning appeal anymore. I find the other cars in that market to be more pleasing to the eye.
just my .02
I love the way the 1st and 2nd gen look. Its a visually appealing car. When I see the new GS's going down the street......they dont strike me with head turning appeal anymore. I find the other cars in that market to be more pleasing to the eye.
just my .02
06-03-07, 07:54 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
I wonder this too. It seems GS sales have cooled off a lot earlier than last generation. I haven't seen any sales data, but MB has been able to keep sales of the E-Class going mid cycle by giving the E350 a nice, new sport package and some attractive lease deals. I'm seeing new E350 sports all over South Florida now. Maybe Lexus needs a sport package on the GS?
06-03-07, 08:06 PM
#5
It would be nice to see the GS with an optional sport package like they did with the L-tuned back in 2001 or 2002(can't remember) I mean Ford has packages from Saleen and Steeda so why can't Lexus have a package lets say from Tein or TRD.. Those are just examples of course. But with all mods from Carson and other companys someone should be able to come up with a resonable priced package.. 
06-03-07, 08:07 PM
#6
I love the way the GS looks but IMO I think Lexus did it wrong with the Engine. Why didn't they put the 3.5 in the first model year. Nobody hasn't heard anything on the GS 460 from Lexus.
06-03-07, 08:13 PM
#7
The GS, compared with it's competition, is:
1) unsporty (albeit fast),
2) expensive (inching closer to European counterparts),
3) and too conservative.
The 300/430 engines were lackluster, and the 350/460 arrives too late. The suspension and electronic characteristics of the GS is too cushy when compared to the 5-Series, M35/45, and even the E-Series (and CLS class).
The pricing of a well appointed GS430 scratches the pricing of entry-level LS460. Now, which of the two would you buy?
The styling of the GS is not breathtaking. It's clean and simple, but it isn't fresh and invigorating. Japanese design has aesthetic balance, but sometimes, Japanese Minimalism does not sell as well as European Modernist.
1) unsporty (albeit fast),
2) expensive (inching closer to European counterparts),
3) and too conservative.
The 300/430 engines were lackluster, and the 350/460 arrives too late. The suspension and electronic characteristics of the GS is too cushy when compared to the 5-Series, M35/45, and even the E-Series (and CLS class).
The pricing of a well appointed GS430 scratches the pricing of entry-level LS460. Now, which of the two would you buy?
The styling of the GS is not breathtaking. It's clean and simple, but it isn't fresh and invigorating. Japanese design has aesthetic balance, but sometimes, Japanese Minimalism does not sell as well as European Modernist.
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06-03-07, 08:15 PM
#8
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From the back, the 3GS looks narrow. From the side it looks good in dark colors only (to me) but the smaller wheels (17s) look terrible in the giant wheel wells. In light colors the side looks very plain, because there's no side bar or creases visible enough to be interesting. L-Finesse here is El-Boring. The front of the car is fairly plain. The interior has some nice touches but overall just doesn't seem 'expensive'. There isn't enough wood or chrome. The main guages with the shiny backing is odd - the IS and LS guages seem much better. The trunk opening is RIDICULOUSLY small. It just has too many weak points and doesn't say $45-65K car.
For the same money there's just better options.
For the same money there's just better options.
06-03-07, 08:33 PM
#10
Well, I am personally very disappointed with my 2nd gen GS as compared to my old 1st gen GS, and I think the 3rd gen is even worse. I've discussed these issues many times before in Car chat and GS forums, so I don't feel like repeating everything, but I'll try and sum it up.
The first gen GS has much better ride with high profile tires, has better road feel, better steering feel, and better, more predictable handling with less body roll. The new GS rides on low profile tires, has artificially tight steering that provides no feedback whatsoever, and its handling is very hard to predict. To top it off, it has the most retarded vehicle stability control system, and even when you shut it off it still seems to be active. The system basically takes over the entire control of the car whenever it feels it should, and almost got me into accident on several occasions. It's a car that suposed to be a "sports sedan", yet it just not, I'm simply affraid to drive it aggressively because of unpredictable handling and the fear of VSC. And with stiff suspension and low profile tires it aint no luxury ride either.
Then you have the engine and transmission, and of couse the 4.3 V8 in the 2nd gen is a lot more powerful than the 3.0 I6 in the first gen, and the 5 speed shifts faster and smoother than the old 4 speed, but unfortunately the 2nd gen GS comes with a terrible invention called "throttle by wire". With the traditional cable throttle system the accelerator responce is a tad quicker than throttle by wire, but most importantly with traditional throttle systems, once you are used to the car, it is very easy to control the amount of throttle the car needs to downshift, or to stay in gear. Sometimes you want to give your car some gas, just enough to pass someone, but not enough to make it downshift, but with throttle by wire systems it is very hard to control. The throttle pedal provides no feedback, and a lot of time I make it downshift while not wanting to.
When it comes to exterior design, both 1sn and 2nd gens are gorgeous, IMO. Very unique, not like anything else. The 2nd gen improves on 1st gen with paint quality and HID lights.
The interior of course is better on the 2nd gen. Nice sound isolation, double door seals, great leather, great looking doors (albeit somewhat flimsy door handrests).
As far as the third gen goes, I don't find it's exterior design too appealing. Although it's clearly the best looking L-finesse design (the only new Lexus that doesn't look like a Camry), it lost the agressive looks of the 2nd gen or the classy, elegant styling of the 1st gen. And when it comes to interior, its significantly cheapened down compared to the 2nd gen. Gone are the leather and carpet door inserts, the new GS doors look like they belong in a GM. The leather on the seats looks cheap, and the texture on the dashboard resembles the texture in mid 90ies Honda Civics. But of course the third gen improves on the engine department, with the new 3.5 being more powerful than old 4.3 and 3.0, and of course the AWD option is welcome.
That being said, I think that GS sales are slow mostly because of high lease rates.
The first gen GS has much better ride with high profile tires, has better road feel, better steering feel, and better, more predictable handling with less body roll. The new GS rides on low profile tires, has artificially tight steering that provides no feedback whatsoever, and its handling is very hard to predict. To top it off, it has the most retarded vehicle stability control system, and even when you shut it off it still seems to be active. The system basically takes over the entire control of the car whenever it feels it should, and almost got me into accident on several occasions. It's a car that suposed to be a "sports sedan", yet it just not, I'm simply affraid to drive it aggressively because of unpredictable handling and the fear of VSC. And with stiff suspension and low profile tires it aint no luxury ride either.
Then you have the engine and transmission, and of couse the 4.3 V8 in the 2nd gen is a lot more powerful than the 3.0 I6 in the first gen, and the 5 speed shifts faster and smoother than the old 4 speed, but unfortunately the 2nd gen GS comes with a terrible invention called "throttle by wire". With the traditional cable throttle system the accelerator responce is a tad quicker than throttle by wire, but most importantly with traditional throttle systems, once you are used to the car, it is very easy to control the amount of throttle the car needs to downshift, or to stay in gear. Sometimes you want to give your car some gas, just enough to pass someone, but not enough to make it downshift, but with throttle by wire systems it is very hard to control. The throttle pedal provides no feedback, and a lot of time I make it downshift while not wanting to.
When it comes to exterior design, both 1sn and 2nd gens are gorgeous, IMO. Very unique, not like anything else. The 2nd gen improves on 1st gen with paint quality and HID lights.
The interior of course is better on the 2nd gen. Nice sound isolation, double door seals, great leather, great looking doors (albeit somewhat flimsy door handrests).
As far as the third gen goes, I don't find it's exterior design too appealing. Although it's clearly the best looking L-finesse design (the only new Lexus that doesn't look like a Camry), it lost the agressive looks of the 2nd gen or the classy, elegant styling of the 1st gen. And when it comes to interior, its significantly cheapened down compared to the 2nd gen. Gone are the leather and carpet door inserts, the new GS doors look like they belong in a GM. The leather on the seats looks cheap, and the texture on the dashboard resembles the texture in mid 90ies Honda Civics. But of course the third gen improves on the engine department, with the new 3.5 being more powerful than old 4.3 and 3.0, and of course the AWD option is welcome.
That being said, I think that GS sales are slow mostly because of high lease rates.
Last edited by Och; 06-03-07 at 08:38 PM.
06-03-07, 08:43 PM
#11
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having owned both the 06 GS300 and now an 07 E350 i can say that both offer the same level of luxury albeit, the GS has a bit more electronic gadgets that i love. What really tipped the scale for me (as i was looking at getting another GS because of the new motor) was that the E350 has insane lease deals, the Lexus not so good and the way the sales consultant didnt really care to try to work out a good deal.
The other thing that i like about the E class is the sport package. That car sits really nicely; the suspension ride incredibly firm but not too harsh and not to soft. When asked which i liked more, i tell them that the level of luxury and comfort is on par with each other, but the GS loses it by not having that sport package. Hell that sport package is selling so well, it's a "free" option now that the dealers orders.
Lexus really needs to offer a sport package and rethink their financial incentives ie better lease deals. It would definitely help tip the scale
The other thing that i like about the E class is the sport package. That car sits really nicely; the suspension ride incredibly firm but not too harsh and not to soft. When asked which i liked more, i tell them that the level of luxury and comfort is on par with each other, but the GS loses it by not having that sport package. Hell that sport package is selling so well, it's a "free" option now that the dealers orders.
Lexus really needs to offer a sport package and rethink their financial incentives ie better lease deals. It would definitely help tip the scale
06-03-07, 08:58 PM
#12
To the OP, Lexus history tells why the LS outsells the GS, and at times IS, plus other vehicles in the Lexus lineup -- comparisons to Benz etc. are not accounting for this.
Namely...Lexus made its name on the LS first. Indeed, the first LS outsold the first ES, and the LS has outsold every model of the GS to date. So it's no surprise.
Why? The LS has the whole Lexus division, vision behind it, and has attracted many admirers and customers. The first LS, and arguably all the ones since, have been a far better value, and in many attributes a better vehicle than its competition--engine, ergonomics, features, design, etc.
The GS was brought in to take the $38,000+ price point when the first LS was moved up to the $50,000 range. However, the first GS was not a major sales success. Why? Because it was not a much better value than the competition. It was on par on some aspects, behind and ahead in others. It was not a superstar like the LS was and is.
Second point...the GS' sales potential is capped by Lexus' bigger hit -- the ES. Note that the "E" market (Benz E-Class) is hit from two angles by Lexus---GS (5-series ish) and ES. More Lexus buyers opt for the ES because it is a far better value than the GS. It is roomier, cheaper, and more luxurious in some ways (UL package).
Third is in reference to the GS itself. Depends on who you ask. I happen to think the GS design is very smart looking on the outside, and nice but a bit sterile on the inside.
Namely...Lexus made its name on the LS first. Indeed, the first LS outsold the first ES, and the LS has outsold every model of the GS to date. So it's no surprise.
Why? The LS has the whole Lexus division, vision behind it, and has attracted many admirers and customers. The first LS, and arguably all the ones since, have been a far better value, and in many attributes a better vehicle than its competition--engine, ergonomics, features, design, etc.
The GS was brought in to take the $38,000+ price point when the first LS was moved up to the $50,000 range. However, the first GS was not a major sales success. Why? Because it was not a much better value than the competition. It was on par on some aspects, behind and ahead in others. It was not a superstar like the LS was and is.
Second point...the GS' sales potential is capped by Lexus' bigger hit -- the ES. Note that the "E" market (Benz E-Class) is hit from two angles by Lexus---GS (5-series ish) and ES. More Lexus buyers opt for the ES because it is a far better value than the GS. It is roomier, cheaper, and more luxurious in some ways (UL package).
Third is in reference to the GS itself. Depends on who you ask. I happen to think the GS design is very smart looking on the outside, and nice but a bit sterile on the inside.
06-03-07, 09:10 PM
#13
One of my main thoughts as to why people might be wavering from the 3rd gen of the GS is the engines they offered when it was first redone. They brought a new body with the same engine that was getting to be 6 years old by the time they pushed the newer body style into production. Think about this, when was the last time that BMW offered the SAME EXACT ENGINE in a completely redesigned vehicle of that magnitude (e.g.: $50k+)? Usually when you say "ALL NEW" you mean "ALL NEW" not all new except the under the hood. To put it bluntly, the 430 engine is old and weak in comparison to its competitors. The 300 hp that it puts out is old news when compared to those numbers put out by it's other v8 competitors.
To me, the biggest mistake they made was to offer a 245hp V6 and the same, vanilla 300hp V8 in a newer, heavier shell. Of course, making those that want the more powerful V8 wait 3 years isn't too smart either. Peoples financial situations change... They might be able to go buy a new GS today, but not tomorrow all the while still being able to afford the payments. It was poor engine choice IMO that is causing a wee bit of the lagging numbers.
To me, the biggest mistake they made was to offer a 245hp V6 and the same, vanilla 300hp V8 in a newer, heavier shell. Of course, making those that want the more powerful V8 wait 3 years isn't too smart either. Peoples financial situations change... They might be able to go buy a new GS today, but not tomorrow all the while still being able to afford the payments. It was poor engine choice IMO that is causing a wee bit of the lagging numbers.
06-03-07, 09:24 PM
#14
Honestly I think the new GS looks great inside and out. Anywho,
In my opinion rather than wait a year or so to introduce new engines, Lexus should have done it from the beginning. Also I think it's feeling competition from it's own camp , the IS , ES 350 and LS 460. I'm sure there have been many potential GS buyers that chose the ES 350 instead. If the ES 350 had been offered in AWD i'm sure it would affect the GS series even more. The LS 460 has a base price similar to that of the GS 430. Japanese midlevel luxury sedans imo never seem to be stronger sellers though. Many people I think simply just ignore them when compared with the E or 5 Series. LS 460s sells I would think because it has established itself in the upper end of the luxury car field.
In my opinion rather than wait a year or so to introduce new engines, Lexus should have done it from the beginning. Also I think it's feeling competition from it's own camp , the IS , ES 350 and LS 460. I'm sure there have been many potential GS buyers that chose the ES 350 instead. If the ES 350 had been offered in AWD i'm sure it would affect the GS series even more. The LS 460 has a base price similar to that of the GS 430. Japanese midlevel luxury sedans imo never seem to be stronger sellers though. Many people I think simply just ignore them when compared with the E or 5 Series. LS 460s sells I would think because it has established itself in the upper end of the luxury car field.
06-03-07, 09:52 PM
#15
Like others have said, I think the car suffers from poor product planning. It's a good car, but Lexus lost some of the new model momentum when they gave us such anemic engines at launch. Infiniti and Mercedes had 270+HP V6s, and ours was significantly short at 245. BMW had 325HP, Infiniti 340, and Mercedes 382HP in their V8s...ours had and still has 300. Nobody wants to buy an underpowered car when more horses can be had for similar or less money.
I really think that they could have just done more to the GS line than they did...they went half way with the car and stopped. We should have had the 3.5 litre and 4.6 litre engines at launch, and while I understand that they wanted to save the 4.6L/8AT for the debut in the LS, it has clearly hurt GS sales. Like others have mentioned, the class leading cars in this segment offer sports packages...why not us? The standard 17" rims are horrible, but I harp on and on about how bad Lexus' OEM rims are. The cars also don't drive as tight and sporty as a 5 series, or as soft and smooth as our own ES 350, so it sort of seems like the odd man out.
Moreover, our interior and exterior color choices are a bit drab, and something more enticing would be nice. Hyundai, Chevrolet, and Mazda offer the same grey, khaki, or black leather combinations that Lexus does, and I feel like they need to be more adventurous here. Camel and Saddle leather are beautiful, but available only on the SC 430. Why? These combinations are extremely rich and would do so much to add character and personality to our cars, but no. We have the most BORING color palette in the premium segment which is a shame because the styling and quality inside the GS is impeccable.
Lastly, the car shares a chassis with the IS and it shows. I don't know if the rear seats are any bigger than they are in the IS, and it seems like the switch to a GS only gets you more driver room...it's too small. The ES350 has a much more usable back seat, and costs significantly less.
All in all, the GS isn't the sportiest, the most luxurious, the biggest, the cheapest, the most interesting, the most powerful, or the best executed so it simply gets lost in the mix. The 2nd generation car was a looker and had a 300HP V8 when nobody else did.
Hopefully the refresh will breathe new life into the car. The 4.6L/3.5L combo is a hard one to beat right now and if they get smart enough to offer a sports package or at least bigger and more attractive rims and better interior color choices...things might change.
I really think that they could have just done more to the GS line than they did...they went half way with the car and stopped. We should have had the 3.5 litre and 4.6 litre engines at launch, and while I understand that they wanted to save the 4.6L/8AT for the debut in the LS, it has clearly hurt GS sales. Like others have mentioned, the class leading cars in this segment offer sports packages...why not us? The standard 17" rims are horrible, but I harp on and on about how bad Lexus' OEM rims are. The cars also don't drive as tight and sporty as a 5 series, or as soft and smooth as our own ES 350, so it sort of seems like the odd man out.
Moreover, our interior and exterior color choices are a bit drab, and something more enticing would be nice. Hyundai, Chevrolet, and Mazda offer the same grey, khaki, or black leather combinations that Lexus does, and I feel like they need to be more adventurous here. Camel and Saddle leather are beautiful, but available only on the SC 430. Why? These combinations are extremely rich and would do so much to add character and personality to our cars, but no. We have the most BORING color palette in the premium segment which is a shame because the styling and quality inside the GS is impeccable.
Lastly, the car shares a chassis with the IS and it shows. I don't know if the rear seats are any bigger than they are in the IS, and it seems like the switch to a GS only gets you more driver room...it's too small. The ES350 has a much more usable back seat, and costs significantly less.
All in all, the GS isn't the sportiest, the most luxurious, the biggest, the cheapest, the most interesting, the most powerful, or the best executed so it simply gets lost in the mix. The 2nd generation car was a looker and had a 300HP V8 when nobody else did.
Hopefully the refresh will breathe new life into the car. The 4.6L/3.5L combo is a hard one to beat right now and if they get smart enough to offer a sports package or at least bigger and more attractive rims and better interior color choices...things might change.