GM: "Petrol and Diesel are Dead" and "Hybrids are not a solution"
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"Petro and Diesel are Dead" says GM
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/225989/
General Motors is determined to “remove the car from the environment and energy debate” in the next 10 years by doing away with the internal combustion engine altogether.
The world’s second largest car company now views hydrogen fuel cell power as the “the end game,” according to its director of advanced technology vehicle concepts Dr Christopher Borroni-Bird. Using internal combustion engines is no longer an option, and that includes diesels and hybrids.
“Hybrids are not a solution,” he said. “They just delay the day of reckoning. The debate about hybrids being cleaner than diesel is irrelevant - the diesel is a dead end because it uses fossil fuels.”
Dr Borroni-Bird said that hydrogen-powered and electric cars would develop alongside each other, and that GM would have a “cost-effective” fuel cell car by 2010. It will trial 100 fuel cell Equinox SUVs across the world in a market test for the car.
GM's first hydrogen production car
Dr Borroni-Bird is part of a team accelerating development of GM’s Chevrolet Volt concept car in an attempt to get it into production by 2010. Last week the company announced it has signed contracts to begin development of new high-performance lithium ion batteries, vital to getting an electric car with a useable range to market.
But there is no guarantee that these batteries will be ready for use in a production car in three years. Despite this risk, GM is willing to risk spending millions on developing a car that may not have a viable propulsion system by the time its ready to go on sale.
Part of GM’s strategy is to complete the “electrification” of the car, replacing mechanical systems with electrical ones such as by-wire braking and steering. These save weight and cut fuel use, and are significantly cheaper and easier to fit if the car itself is electrically driven.
This idea, although not exclusive to GM, was previewed in the Autonomy and Hywire concepts, and opens up possibilities for car development that just don't exist in those powered by the combustion engine. Electric brakes and steering can be easily and quickly retuned to individual customer requirements, for example. “These vehicles aren’t just good for the environment,” said Dr Borroni-Bird. “They help make the car better.”
But GM does not want to be drawn into the debate over producing electricity and hydrogen cleanly. “We will build a car that runs on renewable energy, but it’s not our responsibility to produce the fuels,” said a GM spokesman.
The world’s second largest car company now views hydrogen fuel cell power as the “the end game,” according to its director of advanced technology vehicle concepts Dr Christopher Borroni-Bird. Using internal combustion engines is no longer an option, and that includes diesels and hybrids.
“Hybrids are not a solution,” he said. “They just delay the day of reckoning. The debate about hybrids being cleaner than diesel is irrelevant - the diesel is a dead end because it uses fossil fuels.”
Dr Borroni-Bird said that hydrogen-powered and electric cars would develop alongside each other, and that GM would have a “cost-effective” fuel cell car by 2010. It will trial 100 fuel cell Equinox SUVs across the world in a market test for the car.
GM's first hydrogen production car
Dr Borroni-Bird is part of a team accelerating development of GM’s Chevrolet Volt concept car in an attempt to get it into production by 2010. Last week the company announced it has signed contracts to begin development of new high-performance lithium ion batteries, vital to getting an electric car with a useable range to market.
But there is no guarantee that these batteries will be ready for use in a production car in three years. Despite this risk, GM is willing to risk spending millions on developing a car that may not have a viable propulsion system by the time its ready to go on sale.
Part of GM’s strategy is to complete the “electrification” of the car, replacing mechanical systems with electrical ones such as by-wire braking and steering. These save weight and cut fuel use, and are significantly cheaper and easier to fit if the car itself is electrically driven.
This idea, although not exclusive to GM, was previewed in the Autonomy and Hywire concepts, and opens up possibilities for car development that just don't exist in those powered by the combustion engine. Electric brakes and steering can be easily and quickly retuned to individual customer requirements, for example. “These vehicles aren’t just good for the environment,” said Dr Borroni-Bird. “They help make the car better.”
But GM does not want to be drawn into the debate over producing electricity and hydrogen cleanly. “We will build a car that runs on renewable energy, but it’s not our responsibility to produce the fuels,” said a GM spokesman.
#3
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So, the second largest car company in the world is all of a sudden interested in producing electric cars again. Interesting, since they were also the ones that killed their own electric cars they produced a few years ago.
Perhaps instead of literally destroying what they had created, they could have worked on improving that technology and really made that their main focus. Who knows, they may have even been perceived by the general public as the "green car company" at this point, instead of being looked at as, well, something else.
Perhaps instead of literally destroying what they had created, they could have worked on improving that technology and really made that their main focus. Who knows, they may have even been perceived by the general public as the "green car company" at this point, instead of being looked at as, well, something else.
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we can't compete with diesels, we can't compete with hybrids so they both suck and we'll stick with FC cause no one's really ahead...yet. Right.. good thinking.
Btw, Lexus is already ahead. The GS450h has drive-by-wire and brake-by-wire. The Prius has both plus shift-by-wire (that little joystick).
In fact, GM already built the perfect car. It's called the EV1. Where the hell is the next generation EV1?
Btw, Lexus is already ahead. The GS450h has drive-by-wire and brake-by-wire. The Prius has both plus shift-by-wire (that little joystick).
In fact, GM already built the perfect car. It's called the EV1. Where the hell is the next generation EV1?
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we can't compete with diesels, we can't compete with hybrids so they both suck and we'll stick with FC cause no one's really ahead...yet. Right.. good thinking.
Btw, Lexus is already ahead. The GS450h has drive-by-wire and brake-by-wire. The Prius has both plus shift-by-wire (that little joystick).
In fact, GM already built the perfect car. It's called the EV1. Where the hell is the next generation EV1?
Btw, Lexus is already ahead. The GS450h has drive-by-wire and brake-by-wire. The Prius has both plus shift-by-wire (that little joystick).
In fact, GM already built the perfect car. It's called the EV1. Where the hell is the next generation EV1?
Exactly, thank you
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It's funny how they want to bring Hydrogen to the market, they had the Hywire but they scrapped that because they would have lost money. GM don't be scared, just release it. What else they killed the electric car. Why should people listen to a has been automotive maker? GM just go belly up already and leave it to the Japanese and Koreans to make the cars now.
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So GM is now brandishing itself as a leading authority on automotive technology? Give me a break. Especially you Bob Lutz.
Keep cranking out stuff like the Z06 and Bluedevil and CTSV, and keep our trusty Rental Fleets supplied; just quit making stupid press releases when its obvious that you don't know how to run a damned company.
Oh yeah, that 240hp G6 is pretty tough, I tell you what!!! Thats the epitome of V6 research!!! 10 years ago!!!
Keep cranking out stuff like the Z06 and Bluedevil and CTSV, and keep our trusty Rental Fleets supplied; just quit making stupid press releases when its obvious that you don't know how to run a damned company.
Oh yeah, that 240hp G6 is pretty tough, I tell you what!!! Thats the epitome of V6 research!!! 10 years ago!!!
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The comments here putting down GM are mostly juvenile or just flat wrong.
Despite the conspiracy theorists, GM 'killed' their EV-1 because it wasn't viable commercially. Everyone knows the issues are battery technology, range, and cost.
GM has for decades now had major financial problems. They couldn't continue to pour money into the EV-1 with no prospect of return while losing so much money overall. I agree though that the EV-1 "destruction" was a PR disaster.
However, GM is hardly a dying company. In case some of you hadn't noticed, they're winning awards all over the place for many of their new models.
They still have financial problems although they're getting somewhat more under control as (sadly) the retirees with huge benefits die off.
Toyota is undoubtedly on a roll and doing many great things. But that doesn't mean companies like GM and Ford are worthless. I personally agree with the GM view because Hybrids make no economic sense for most people who buy them. But the public seems to be happy to spend thousands to save a dollar a day and feel 'green'.
I'll hang on to my Toyota stock.
Despite the conspiracy theorists, GM 'killed' their EV-1 because it wasn't viable commercially. Everyone knows the issues are battery technology, range, and cost.
GM has for decades now had major financial problems. They couldn't continue to pour money into the EV-1 with no prospect of return while losing so much money overall. I agree though that the EV-1 "destruction" was a PR disaster.
However, GM is hardly a dying company. In case some of you hadn't noticed, they're winning awards all over the place for many of their new models.
They still have financial problems although they're getting somewhat more under control as (sadly) the retirees with huge benefits die off.
Toyota is undoubtedly on a roll and doing many great things. But that doesn't mean companies like GM and Ford are worthless. I personally agree with the GM view because Hybrids make no economic sense for most people who buy them. But the public seems to be happy to spend thousands to save a dollar a day and feel 'green'.
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The comments here putting down GM are mostly juvenile or just flat wrong.
Despite the conspiracy theorists, GM 'killed' their EV-1 because it wasn't viable commercially. Everyone knows the issues are battery technology, range, and cost.
GM has for decades now had major financial problems. They couldn't continue to pour money into the EV-1 with no prospect of return while losing so much money overall. I agree though that the EV-1 "destruction" was a PR disaster.
Despite the conspiracy theorists, GM 'killed' their EV-1 because it wasn't viable commercially. Everyone knows the issues are battery technology, range, and cost.
GM has for decades now had major financial problems. They couldn't continue to pour money into the EV-1 with no prospect of return while losing so much money overall. I agree though that the EV-1 "destruction" was a PR disaster.
Then why bother even putting the EV-1 out there in the first place?
It's not a "conspiracy theory" when a company mass produces a car and then does little to no promotion to try to move that vehicle. It's a fact and it doesn't really make too much sense when their business is to sell cars.
To say that it wasn't viable commercially isn't really true either. The EV-1 with its 1990s technology was capable of 75-80 miles per charge. Certainly enough for the average American to utilize the vehicle for day-to-day use. GM could have easily informed those customers who were interested in them on the limitations of the EV-1 and left it up to the consumer to make the decision on whether the EV-1 was right for them (while continuing to improve technology and make them even more useful in the future).
Sure, maybe the EV-1's weren't making them money initially, but it was still new technology at the time. I don't recall Toyota making huge if any profits on the original Prius's either. However, that didn't stop them from continuing to pursue and further develop their hybrids. To suggest that there was no prospect on return for GM is a little ridiculous, IMO.
GM could have easily kept up production on the EV-1 on a limited basis and let those interested in the vehicle to still be able to purchase them. But when you have those customers literally protesting to keep their cars and willing to pay for them in full, meanwhile GM is busy arranging to have said cars literally crushed & destroyed, then there is a serious problem there. It is no longer a conspiracy "theory" at that point, but in fact a reality.
Last edited by LetMeShowU; 06-17-07 at 06:44 AM.
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Ok. So why does GM assume that other companies arent working on fuelcell tech as well? Last I checked, Toyota has had fuel cell vehicles in customers hands doing testing (like how BMW is doing with their hydrogen 7) since 1997.... Thats a decade now. I think they will be right there and ready to release when the infrastructure for hydrogen is ready and the economics of it are viable. They have always said that the Prius is a "test bed" for alternate technologies... i.e. Its possible that the 4th gen (or is it 5th?!?) will be a fuel cell vehicle..... time will tell, and its really stupid of GM to discard these other technologies, because while the future is good, people need you to be effective and efficient is here and NOW.
Not to mention, hybrid technology is an extension of FC tech, except the gas motor is being replaced by a fuel cell. Hydrogen Combustion engines are pretty much the only future tech that is not hybrid based, but guess what? Chances are that a HCE hybrid with Li-batteries will be > than a HCE engine alone...
[/rant]
Not to mention, hybrid technology is an extension of FC tech, except the gas motor is being replaced by a fuel cell. Hydrogen Combustion engines are pretty much the only future tech that is not hybrid based, but guess what? Chances are that a HCE hybrid with Li-batteries will be > than a HCE engine alone...
[/rant]
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To learn, to find out what works and what doesn't.
How many EV-1's did they make? I don't know, but I thought it was only a couple of thousand. Regardless, no need for dramatic promotion if production volumes are so small. And GM never had a goal to sell tons because they lost a fortune on each one they sold.
Again, GM lost money on every one. Not a great venture. ![Big Grin](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Not ridiculous at all. HUGE difference in an electric vehicle vs. a hybrid. Note: Toyota doesn't make electric vehicles! There's a good reason! Good technology for golf carts though.
It's not a "conspiracy theory" when a company mass produces a car and then does little to no promotion to try to move that vehicle. It's a fact and it doesn't really make too much sense when their business is to sell cars.
To say that it wasn't viable commercially isn't really true either. The EV-1 with its 1990s technology was capable of 75-80 miles per charge.
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Sure, maybe the EV-1's weren't making them money initially, but it was still new technology at the time. I don't recall Toyota making huge if any profits on the original Prius's either. However, that didn't stop them from continuing to pursue and further develop their hybrids. To suggest that there was no prospect on return for GM is a little ridiculous, IMO.
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I agree with bitkahuna for the most part, and GM has a point when they say hybrids aren't the answer. If you take the time to do the math, buying a hybrid does not save you any money, not unless you plan to keep the car for 10+ years. I'm not convinced that FC is the answer either though.
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