ElitistK

iTrader: (4)

not to mention a lot prettier.

Mr. Jones

let me clarify, I don't think adjectives used to describe a sports car should be applied to luxury sports sedans.

Whether or not the 335i is the best vehicle in its class is not what I'm arguing.

I agree, and no sales are not struggling but apparently the extra fifteen thousand dollar premium isn't worth it to most people including most 3series owners (328i)

Threxx

What costs an extra 15 grand? The 335i? It starts right under 40, so it's 15 grand over what? A moderately equipped Ford Taurus?

doug_999

Or you don't know how to add....

The 335i convertible has only been out for about three months. So why not compare the sales of the 335i coupe + convertible during this three month period....(April- June)

The 335i outsold the Z (and um, not sure where the other two people sit in this car - so not so sure about your comparisons)
The 335i outsold the 997 (and let's just take the 911, coupe, convert, and for good measure throw in the S variants)
Now if it makes you feel better, the Corvette did outsell the 335i coupe and convertible, but I ask you once again, How are you going to get four people into a Vette?????

OC 335d

People like to skew numbers to their favor when arguing just for the sake of arguing. Then they pick on your use of adjectives on a car forum.

Here is a good line I've read recently on a car forum:
We are all car enthusiasts, we all share the same passion. We should just be able to appreciate our common interests and differences in taste.

Mr. Jones

funny cause its nearly everyday around here I see a BMW owner picking on a Lexus owner because their cars are so boring compared to their telepathic BMW.

Mr. Jones

yes it does, thanks for making my day.

OC 335d

There's no need to play Captain Save-A-Lexus, bitter much? Is the steering on the BMW more telepathic than Lexus? Can I use that word when comparing the two? Is it okay? Or is the word patented for Ferrari use only?

I'm one of the first to say, Lexus builds very nice cars but they are totally different than BMW. Sure, they may be a bit boring to people who like to drive cars more geared into performance. But who cares? I think it's Lexus' intent to isolate the driver/passengers from the road. It's a luxury feel. Some people don't want to be connected to the road. That's fine.

I don't see how Lexus suddenly became the topic of discussion (read thread title). There's no need to be bitter at BMWs because they make great cars also.

Let's get back to the topic at hand before the thread gets locked. I think it's safe to say, we have different opinions on different cars. I like BMWs, I like Lexus, and I like Infiniti. I just like cars.

Again...
We are all car enthusiasts, we all share the same passion. We should just be able to appreciate our common interests and differences in taste.

What's taking so long for this car to come out? :P

OC 335d

Bang for your buck has never been BMW's strong suit and I'm afraid it never will be. BMW, IMHO caters to a relatively young, somewhat successful crowd that wants the car as a measure of success and obviously caters to your more performance oriented driver. Japanese companies are known more for bang for your buck and until recently, more for "econoboxes" such as your typical Honda or Toyota. It is quite refreshing to see Lexus move to towards the more expensive, upper-echelon luxury cruisers, such as the LS600h L, LF-A, and IS-F. I wish Honda had the same mentality (and budget) to evolutionize the NSX/S2000. Honda now and then will build such absolutely fabulous cars, then let them become dated.

Mr. Jones

you can't patent a phrase. you can trademark one like, "The Ultimate Driving Machine."

but anyways.

I'm not bitter, maybe annoyed.
Take for instance

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...=Lightning+Lap

a C6 Z06 outruns everything and it isn't even mentioned in the thread.

BMW this, BMW that, BMW is worth the extra $15k (yet the G35 is CR's favorite entry level luxury sedan)

BMW is >* arguments seem to go on endlessly, mainly thanks to BMW owners and C&D. Sometimes I forget where I am.

Why even own a sports car anymore? The automotive mags (not the marketplace) have spoken and BMW's are the ultimate driving machines. Nothing else matters

Och

iTrader: (3)

See I agree with that 100%. It is annoying how BMW is praised all over, by magazines, and their owners, but hardly anybody is willing to talk about BMW's faults and shortcomings. I for instance had 3 Lexii, 1 Honda, and I've spoken about my cars plusses and minuses, however I'm yet to see a single 323 owner admit that their car is rubbish. Heck, you have BMW calling themselves a performance brand, yet they do not make a single REAL sports car, never have, never will, and most of their line-up is rather average, if not pathetic. At least they no longer have 180hp 325/525 that would get their *** handed to them by a Taurus, but even nowadays a V6 Accord/Camry will give a good run for the money to most of their line-up. And their high output engines have been nothing but trouble, with M5's engines suffering from compression loss, M3's engines have wide array of problems, and even the new 335 suffering from overheating. Pretty pathetic when a brand new performance car from a "performance" brand can't hold a candle to anti-sporty Toyota's 15 year old Supra.

And then you have their active steering, electronic throttles and transmissions, that all take away from the driving experience, yet you have people willing to argue to death how telepathic BMW's are.

And when you consider that BMW interiors are the ugliest, least luxurious in class, and their control systems are awkward, it just boggles my mind that people even buy these things. I mean, you have the 7 series, which has the most ridiculous implementation of I-drive and the most awkwardly placed controls, and then you have a 5 series with the handbrake in the center console, leaving the driver without a handrest, and to have an electronic gear shifter next to the handbrake is laughable. Yeah, yeah, I know you can buy one with a manual transmission, but nobody does anyway. I could go on and on about lack of ergonomics or common sense in BMW's interior designs but I really don't want to. All I can say is I wish they would take a lesson from Lexus and Acura when it came to interiors and controls. Out of all of their vehicles, the 3 series is the only one with decent interior and comprehendible controls, but unfortunately it’s ugly and cheaply built, somewhere on par with last gen G35. And lets not forget the controversial styling of their "Bangled" line-up.

Of course, no car is perfect, not even Lexus, and every car has its own share of plusses, minuses, and compromises. But as far as BMW’s are concerned, I personally feel that their minuses and compromises simply overshadow whatever plusses they might have, and the only thing selling them is the badge and abundance of people that need the badge to compensate for their own shortcomings, combined of course with BMW’s subsidized lease rates.

OC 335d

BMWs are all around cars that are oriented towards performance. They don't have to be Porsche to be a performance brand.

I'd take a new M3 over a Supra. See Nurburging times.

You keep bringing up active steering when the majority of the cars at BMW lots do NOT have active steering.

At least manual is an option, unlike cough cough... The handbrake isn't as bad as Lexus' foot handbrake.

Right on queue! You say a comment like "no car is perfect, not even Lexus" to justify your comments then you go attacking BMW owners. You never mention any BMW pluses, you are constantly attacking BMW and their owners. You're a real class act.

Then again, I should know better than to argue with someone about performance cars, since you have so much knowledge on the subject, coming from 1 Honda, 1 Lexus GS, and 1 Lexus LS. Pure performance cars you have there, you are obviously well-versed on driving performance cars. I bet you haven't even been on the track. BMW holds several performance classes, offers performance center delivery, and you will see many BMWs on the track. You don't see the same with Toyota, since they generally aren't geared towards performance. You will be hard pressed to find many Lexus at the track as well. I dislike the ignorant die hard BMW fan boys as much as anyone, but being an anti-BMW zealot isn't much better.

OC 335d

Maybe because the C6 Z06 isn't a Sporty Coupe? Why are you comparing Apples and Oranges again? I guess you are getting closer than your F40 comparisons. Hey, when the IS-F comes around, I'll start comparing it to a Porsche GT3.

Och

iTrader: (3)

But how about a single true sports car? NSX, S2K for instance? How about a single RELIABLE, hassle free high output engine?

I've no doubts that the new M3 will easily outperform a Supra, but what about reliability? If its anything like the current M3, no thanks.

But majority of them do have throttle by wire and electronic transmissions, all taking away from driving feel and feedback.

I bet most BMW owners don't even know how to drive a stick. And Lexus foot handbrake is perfect. Being that a parking brake is virtually useless in a car with automatic transmission, I like having it out of sight, and not taking up space in the center console.

Well, I don't know, maybe I'm not perfect either, but when I see BMW owners claim that their 323's, or better yet, X3's and X5's are uber sports cars, it just makes me go


First of all thats 2 Lexus GS, and I'm utterly disappointed with the 2nd one, and looking to replace it with something else... However being generally spoiled by Lexus, it isn't easy to find a worthy replacement, especially nowadays, when most new cars are so ugly and cheaply built, including L-finessed Lexii.

As far as myself, I've never claimed to be Michael Schumacher, and while I do like an agressive drive here and there, I also value comfort, build quality, styling, utility, etc, etc, and BMW's simply do not appeal to me in any of these aspects. Sure, if I was rich, I'd have myself LS600 for a luxury car, S2000 for rotations, and Viper SRT10 or very modified Supra to haul some ***. Unfortunately, I'm not rich, so I do have to make more sensible choices.

Gojirra99

Since no one seem interested in discussing the topic of this thread, G37 vs. 335i anymore ...