How long can Lexus remain #1?
06-16-09, 12:24 AM
#17
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You say they lack "image" but quite literally, that is what will be selling these cars. This is BMW's in-house Scion, of sorts. If you can get a compact, 218HP 125i/128i for the same price as a 270HP midsize CamCordTima...you're going to be selling the BMW because it has a the blue and white roundel on the hood, certainly not because it is more car for your money. I predict high school and college parking lots being FULL of the 1 series because kids are going to want a BMW for the same price as their Camrys and Accords, despite being arguably less car for the money.
IMO, make no mistake about it. Midsize mainstream cars are so good now- Camry, Aura, Altima, Accord- that to buy a subcompact premium-branded car for the same price means you are buying name, and not much else.
IMO, make no mistake about it. Midsize mainstream cars are so good now- Camry, Aura, Altima, Accord- that to buy a subcompact premium-branded car for the same price means you are buying name, and not much else.
As far as BMW and Mercedes-Benz being huge threats to Toyota and Lexus, think again. The largest threat to Lexus, as it expands globally, is not those two German marques, it's Audi, who like Lexus, is subsidized by a very large parent company. BMW and Mercedes-Benz simply do not have the economies of scale that the VW Group enjoys in regards to technology that goes into Audi products. The same is going to start holding true for Toyota and Lexus, and is why you have BMW/MB running around either trying to get into some collaborative partnership, or going to smaller Japanese car firms for help making small cars that actually yield sufficient margins, something MB and BMW have been hopeless at. The Smart, A/B Classes have never made much money, they are simply too costly to build, which is why, as I was getting to, you have Daimler looking around to small Japanese manufactures like Honda for a tie-up.
06-16-09, 04:08 AM
#18
Pole Position
^^ The 1 series is not just a badge. You are correct about that. The only thing it really offers for the money, though, is a decent driving experience. Everything else about the car is cheap.
The Accord and Camry, as you said, are basic, run of the mill "grocery getters". There's really nothing "special" about them except that they are extremely nice, quiet, comfortable, reliable, and economical to own. Of the two, the Accord's steering is far from lifeless and numb. I understand that it is by no means a sports sedan, but it does have a slight sporty character and is certainly more sure footed and fun to drive than the anemic Camry.
Let's not forget, also, this thread was dredged up after 2 years. A lot has changed in that time.
The Accord and Camry, as you said, are basic, run of the mill "grocery getters". There's really nothing "special" about them except that they are extremely nice, quiet, comfortable, reliable, and economical to own. Of the two, the Accord's steering is far from lifeless and numb. I understand that it is by no means a sports sedan, but it does have a slight sporty character and is certainly more sure footed and fun to drive than the anemic Camry.
Let's not forget, also, this thread was dredged up after 2 years. A lot has changed in that time.
06-16-09, 05:37 AM
#19
The Accord and Camry, as you said, are basic, run of the mill "grocery getters". There's really nothing "special" about them except that they are extremely nice, quiet, comfortable, reliable, and economical to own. Of the two, the Accord's steering is far from lifeless and numb. I understand that it is by no means a sports sedan, but it does have a slight sporty character and is certainly more sure footed and fun to drive than the anemic Camry.
Let's not forget, also, this thread was dredged up after 2 years. A lot has changed in that time.
Let's not forget, also, this thread was dredged up after 2 years. A lot has changed in that time.
06-16-09, 05:53 AM
#20
The truth is, you aren't just "paying for a badge", you are paying for a car that drives better, and in many respects, is just simply built better. The 1-Series, like any low-end Mercedes-Benz or Audi, is sold as premium small car around the world, a fact that seems to get lost in all this talk of the European manufactures "moving downmarket".
For example Toyota makes a sporty, premium Camry for Australia. I'll take that over the 1 Series in a heartbeat.
As far as BMW and Mercedes-Benz being huge threats to Toyota and Lexus, think again. The largest threat to Lexus, as it expands globally, is not those two German marques, it's Audi, who like Lexus, is subsidized by a very large parent company. BMW and Mercedes-Benz simply do not have the economies of scale that the VW Group enjoys in regards to technology that goes into Audi products. The same is going to start holding true for Toyota and Lexus, and is why you have BMW/MB running around either trying to get into some collaborative partnership, or going to smaller Japanese car firms for help making small cars that actually yield sufficient margins, something MB and BMW have been hopeless at. The Smart, A/B Classes have never made much money, they are simply too costly to build, which is why, as I was getting to, you have Daimler looking around to small Japanese manufactures like Honda for a tie-up.
06-16-09, 06:08 AM
#21
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Incorrect. The US version of the 1 series might be equipped to make it look/feel premium, but its basic built is cheap and it is sold elsewhere in the world as a cheap crapbucket.
For example Toyota makes a sporty, premium Camry for Australia. I'll take that over the 1 Series in a heartbeat.
No. Audi is subsidized by their parent company, Lexus is not subsidized, its actually profitable.
For example Toyota makes a sporty, premium Camry for Australia. I'll take that over the 1 Series in a heartbeat.
No. Audi is subsidized by their parent company, Lexus is not subsidized, its actually profitable.
Its amazing to me how the internetz wants to continue to hate on 2 great vanilla cars. The Accord and more so the Camry. They have been #1 and #2 in sales here for years. CLEARLY people are very happy with it. They are so good VW themselves said the cars they build here will be more tuned for the American market. There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with the Accord/Camry. It sells very well to its target market. There is nothing wrong with the 1-series. It sells to its target market.
FKL you have no leg to stand on trying to call out MPLexus about numbers (its also a 2 year old post) when Audi continues to make statements they want to sell more cars. Who really is caught up in numbers?
http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-s...fiction-20469/
Audi has a 1.5 million sales target
http://www.motorauthority.com/audi-w...es-target.html
http://wot.motortrend.com/6338148/in...als/index.html
VW CEO Says Audi Needs U.S. Production to Meet Sales Goals
Scott_Evans
Posted November 3 2008 12:19 PM by Scott_Evans
In the past six months, Audi has gone from mulling the idea of a U.S. production plant to now needing one, according to Volkswagen Group CEO Martin Winterkorn. Ever since Volkswagen announced its intentions to build an assembly plant stateside, Audi has sniffing around for one of its own and the latest reports indicate that a possible plan to produce Audis at Volkswagen's plant rather than build a second plant is the most likely scenario. Winterkorn, though, wouldn't confirm just where Audis will be built in the future.
"Perhaps in Chattanooga, but we have no decision yet," Winterkorn told Automotive News at a reception for Tennessee officials last month.
One thing is for certain, though, according to Winterkorn: Audi needs to build vehicles in America if it wants to reach its goal of doubling its U.S. sales by 2015. A final decision is expected to be made some time during 2009. Though no decision has been made for Audi yet, Volkswagen is going ahead with its $1 billion plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where it hopes to produce some 150,000 cars a year after it comes online in 2011. The plant is expected to have the capacity to build 250,000 cars or more per year, leaving plenty of room for Audi production.
"We have very precise, definite concepts of where to expand and how to expand the paint shop, how to expand the final assembly, how to expand the body shop," said Jochem Heizmann, VW group board of management member in charge of production, at an event in Berlin. "There is a possibility to build Audi cars at this plant as well.
06-16-09, 06:16 PM
#24
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Outside of the North America there is no shame in driving a luxury car with a smaller engine operating under the hood. Many countries in Europe and Asia have taxes on power output and emissions. Just because one is wealthy and can afford such cars doesn't mean one immediately goes for the most powerful model available. People outside of the US have something called "reality check" (that's what I'll call it) and are realistic when it comes to purchasing cars.
It's only us (the silly Americans) who complain about every little thing and blow it out of proportion. The average American just can't seem to grasp the concept of a luxury car with a smaller, more efficient engine ticking under the hood. I don't know why.
Most people driving S550s or LS460s would seriously be better off with an S350 or an "LS350". Isn't it prestigious enough that you're driving a "Benz or a Lexus" in the first place? Who really cares what's under the hood...
The German premium makes do offer cheaper trim models of their products, but these are mainly for people who want the premium car without this and that and just want a basic premium car. In no way do they try to compete with mainstream makes. Just because a magazine or a shopper makes the odd comparison doesn't mean that these cars compete.
There are many American tourists in Stuttgart. Stuttgart is a city filled with Mercedes E class taxis and in no way does that seem to affect them. In fact, I actually witnessed a family of three "wanting to try an E class taxi" at the trainstation when I picked up my wife from a trip she took a few months ago.
Everyone seems to look down on the word "taxi". Why? A taxi is a car that brings people from A to B efficiently and in comfort. The E class is the perfect car for this job. Spacious, comfortable and low maintenance in the basic diesel model form. So what if it is a premium car that has been modified for taxi duty? On the Mercedes website you can see that they offer a special taxi package for some of their cars (including the S class). Audi and BMW do the same thing by the way.
Last weekend I was in Munich (also checked out the BMW museum and World) where I met many Americans at the famous tourist spots. Let me tell you that there are a lot of E class and 5 series taxis in that city and nobody (tourists) seemed to care. Now it is impossible to guess what they were thinking but I had a few beers with a bunch of car-crazy college kids from Michigan who were raving on about BMWs and Mercedes' products (among others) while behind us base diesel E classes or 5 series went about their business. Do you see the connection here? You have these premium cars in taxi trim doing their duty while tourists from the United States see this, but don't seem to think anything of it.
What the Germans have really done is adjust their cars to the global market. This is something GM for example didn't do when they tried selling Tahoe's or a Cadillac Escalade over here. No diesels etc. America wants their premium cars like this, Europe like that, Japan prefers this motorization and that, Australia likes 'em in RHD with this and that and so forth. In Europe people who buy luxury cars don't think like Americans who buy luxury cars. Different cultures demand different products. As a manufacturer you have to make sure your product appeals to a certain culture and so forth. That's what the Germans have done.
It doesn't really have anything to do with "fooling us". Let's not forget that the European brands have a rich history and heritage which Lexus lacks (and will always lack) and that is very important to some people. It's also very convincing for some people.
And with the changing economic times and fluctuating gas prices, wouldn't you say it is a great idea for luxury brands to adapt and offer the products that people will want eventually?
Poor marketing and a gutless engine that didn't suit the BMW character killed the car. If it had a "proper engine" and was marketed properly, it would definitely have appealed to enthusiasts in my opinion.
I'm actually looking into perhaps privately buying a used 2008 116i.
Probably because America still can't get used to the idea of a small premium car.
Poor marketing again. The car lacked sportiness. Most reviews claimed the engine was powerful and quick but felt like an unrefined four cylinder. I think people expected too much from the car, especially that it should drive like a SPORTcoupe.
With Hyundai going to RWD and V-8s and Buick getting better and Accords and Camry's etc getting better, if a luxury car company does not really differentiate themselves, they will fall in more in image. Acura, Infiniti, Saab, Volvo, etc are in trouble. Non luxury brands are getting on their territory. Then they continue to go downscale with new products, instead of up.
06-16-09, 06:31 PM
#25
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As Lexus continues to move up market with cars like the new LS and LX, LF-A, hybrids, and "F" performance division, I also think that it is not impossible for them to surpass BMW and Mercedes in prestige, not unlike the former glory of Jaguar. Sounds like a bit of a long shot, but the upper management at Lexus has already noted that they will not go below the IS or RX, meaning that the price of admission for a Lexus will always be at least $32,000 or so...whereas that for a Mercedes, BMW, or Audi will/could be considerably less.
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
06-16-09, 07:37 PM
#26
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I think you seriously need to pay a visit to some of the museums the German manufacturers have opened. Since I live in Stuttgart I was obliged to visit the Porsche and Mercedes-Benz museum. I like both brands to a degree but I don't really consider myself a hardcore fan of either. Yet the visit to their museums just increased my respect for them. It gave me insight into the brands and why things are the way they are. For example, why does Mercedes build trucks, buses or vans? Because in the late 19th century Benz and Daimler (still two separate firms at this point) were amongst the innovators of different vehicle niches and those were just some of them. Achievements like this define a brand and explain what they do and why they do it. I learned this by visiting a museum - and both museums were impressive. I still have pictures of the new Porsche museum I need to post here!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
We both know since the early 1900s there has been great pride with racing/motorsport and cars in Germany. It will take Lexus time. BMW in particular wasn't a big luxury brand until the late 1960s and 1970s and only recently has the lineup expanded (due to economies of scale, they need to sell more to stay profitable).
Will a Lexus museum ever happen? Maybe. For now to be honest what could they showcase? Not much.
As for replying to what you quoted, I stated that 2 years ago. I don't agree that failures were only due to marketing. The car stunk, period.
06-17-09, 03:00 AM
#27
I think you seriously need to pay a visit to some of the museums the German manufacturers have opened. Since I live in Stuttgart I was obliged to visit the Porsche and Mercedes-Benz museum. I like both brands to a degree but I don't really consider myself a hardcore fan of either. Yet the visit to their museums just increased my respect for them. It gave me insight into the brands and why things are the way they are. For example, why does Mercedes build trucks, buses or vans? Because in the late 19th century Benz and Daimler (still two separate firms at this point) were amongst the innovators of different vehicle niches and those were just some of them. Achievements like this define a brand and explain what they do and why they do it. I learned this by visiting a museum - and both museums were impressive. I still have pictures of the new Porsche museum I need to post here!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
06-17-09, 07:03 AM
#28
I think you seriously need to pay a visit to some of the museums the German manufacturers have opened. Since I live in Stuttgart I was obliged to visit the Porsche and Mercedes-Benz museum. I like both brands to a degree but I don't really consider myself a hardcore fan of either. Yet the visit to their museums just increased my respect for them. It gave me insight into the brands and why things are the way they are. For example, why does Mercedes build trucks, buses or vans? Because in the late 19th century Benz and Daimler (still two separate firms at this point) were amongst the innovators of different vehicle niches and those were just some of them. Achievements like this define a brand and explain what they do and why they do it. I learned this by visiting a museum - and both museums were impressive. I still have pictures of the new Porsche museum I need to post here!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
Last weekend I visited the BMW museum in Munich and left with a great admiration and respect for that company. A museum is a place where manufacturers can showcase their history, their heritage and their achievements.
Lexus doesn't have a museum - and hence appears quite lackluster in terms of brand heritage when compared to the Germans.
I am an admirer of Lexus but the way they have risen to the top is completely different from how the German brands did it. The biggest problem is probably the "Toyota connection" Lexus has in the minds of many people. This means that in terms of brand prestige I think they can never really come close to some of the European luxury brands, which also happened to be around much longer and have a history of innovation, motorsport participation and so forth. Perhaps if you visit the museums of the German brands you will understand what I mean.
Lexus is a great brand and they do have my respect and admiration, but in terms of brand prestige they're a little "empty" to me. No offense.
Just my opinion. Wow, Europe has really gotten to me!
Looks like it. Qute frankly heritage doesn't mean jack when you're driving a dog slow diesel with "premium badge" but manual everything and cloth upholstery and getting gunned down by a V6 camry with leather and automatic everything.
And as far as heritage and museum goes, do they mention anything about using slave labor and commiting various crimes during WW2? Or that Dr. Porsche was a war criminal? Much to be proud of, right?
And then you're saying the "Toyota connection" is the biggest problem for Lexus. How so? They had a very smart business plan, Lexus to sell premium cars only and Toyota to sell mid level and economy autos. The plan works beautifuly, while Mercedes and BMW are actually victims of their badges in the US. Don't you think they would love to expand their sales in the US by offering less than premium models here that they have in Yurop? But they can't do that because it will "hurt their image".
06-17-09, 08:32 AM
#29
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Looks like it. Qute frankly heritage doesn't mean jack when you're driving a dog slow diesel with "premium badge" but manual everything and cloth upholstery and getting gunned down by a V6 camry with leather and automatic everything.
And as far as heritage and museum goes, do they mention anything about using slave labor and commiting various crimes during WW2? Or that Dr. Porsche was a war criminal? Much to be proud of, right?
And then you're saying the "Toyota connection" is the biggest problem for Lexus. How so? They had a very smart business plan, Lexus to sell premium cars only and Toyota to sell mid level and economy autos. The plan works beautifuly, while Mercedes and BMW are actually victims of their badges in the US. Don't you think they would love to expand their sales in the US by offering less than premium models here that they have in Yurop? But they can't do that because it will "hurt their image".
And as far as heritage and museum goes, do they mention anything about using slave labor and commiting various crimes during WW2? Or that Dr. Porsche was a war criminal? Much to be proud of, right?
And then you're saying the "Toyota connection" is the biggest problem for Lexus. How so? They had a very smart business plan, Lexus to sell premium cars only and Toyota to sell mid level and economy autos. The plan works beautifuly, while Mercedes and BMW are actually victims of their badges in the US. Don't you think they would love to expand their sales in the US by offering less than premium models here that they have in Yurop? But they can't do that because it will "hurt their image".
06-17-09, 08:39 AM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
I dont think anyone is talking about dog slow diesel, maybe something that has enough power for highway passing and gets good mileage. Power, to me does not equal to Luxury. They are two different things in my book.