How long can Lexus remain #1?
06-18-09 | 09:51 AM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
From: San Mateo. California
In the US like said before, we like bigger engines. But for example, (ignoring the 525i) the lower model 530i will outsell the 550i just because of the price difference, not JUST because people don't care about engine size..
I'm not disagreeing that a lot of people don't care about the engine size, but price is a huge factor
I'm not disagreeing that a lot of people don't care about the engine size, but price is a huge factor
06-18-09 | 09:55 AM
#47
What "dog slow diesel" are you talking about specifically?
Did it ever occur to you that some people want a luxury car and don't care much about performance? Hell, most of those people probably drive Lexus cars in the United States, too. Smaller, less powerful, but more efficient engines are an alternative in Europe. An alternative that people want.
Oh, and please stop the "I was overtaken by a V6 Camry" thing. Nobody really cares about that. If you value performance then you're going to buy a model that is more powerful. Very simple. Someone driving a "dog slow diesel" really couldn't care less if a V6 Camry overtook them. What are you? A boy racer who likes to challenge everything that pulls up next to him at the light?
*Sigh* Kids...
Did it ever occur to you that some people want a luxury car and don't care much about performance? Hell, most of those people probably drive Lexus cars in the United States, too. Smaller, less powerful, but more efficient engines are an alternative in Europe. An alternative that people want.
Oh, and please stop the "I was overtaken by a V6 Camry" thing. Nobody really cares about that. If you value performance then you're going to buy a model that is more powerful. Very simple. Someone driving a "dog slow diesel" really couldn't care less if a V6 Camry overtook them. What are you? A boy racer who likes to challenge everything that pulls up next to him at the light?
*Sigh* Kids...
So lets say if you're driving a vehicle from a premium brand that has a rough and gutless diesel (730d, 320d, etc), cloth upholstery, manual controls, and so on - what exactly makes that car more premium that a fully loaded Accord or Camry?
You make it sound as if the German brands did this from the moment they were created. Slave labor usage during World War II didn't really occur until from 1940 to 1945 if memory serves me right. What I do know is that the German brands have also paid compensation payments to the victims and their families as well as an apology.
You do know that Toyota also used slave labor during World War II, right? I am curious. Did Toyota ever pay reparation payments to these former slave laborers? You tell me.
You do know that Toyota also used slave labor during World War II, right? I am curious. Did Toyota ever pay reparation payments to these former slave laborers? You tell me.
On the side note, my grandfather, who is still alive btw, has fought from 1941 to 1945, and stayed in Berlin for several years after the war with Russian occupation forces. He did not get a penny of compensation.
Many people who value history and heritage see the "Toyota connection" when they look at a Lexus. Do they care? Some do, some don't.
Personally, I don't care much about this. I know a good product when I see one be it German, Japanese, Korean etc. I generally respect all car brands and their history but at the end of the day I want a good product that suits my needs - and I don't care about the history of the brand. I just want the good product.
Personally, I don't care much about this. I know a good product when I see one be it German, Japanese, Korean etc. I generally respect all car brands and their history but at the end of the day I want a good product that suits my needs - and I don't care about the history of the brand. I just want the good product.
And I mentioned history and heritage because many people seem to think that brand prestige is partly defined by this. Now, looking at the history of Mercedes it is hard to argue that Lexus is superior in brand prestige. What is Lexus most famous for? Reliable cars and good service and value. That's about it, really. Now look at the history of Mercedes (or BMW etc.) and look at their achievements, their success and participation in motorsport, innovation of all kinds and so on during the decades. Clearly, Lexus cannot compete here in terms of the overall picture. True, Lexus has been innovating - but so has the competition.
Like I said, I don't care who has more prestige. I want a product that suits my needs. But it is hard to claim that Lexus has as much brand prestige as its German (European) rivals - especially outside of North America, where what exactly prestige is is viewed differently.
06-18-09 | 01:36 PM
#48
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
In the US like said before, we like bigger engines. But for example, (ignoring the 525i) the lower model 530i will outsell the 550i just because of the price difference, not JUST because people don't care about engine size..
I'm not disagreeing that a lot of people don't care about the engine size, but price is a huge factor
I'm not disagreeing that a lot of people don't care about the engine size, but price is a huge factor
The price probably is the deciding factor anyway.
But do believe me when I tell you that there are people out there that just "want the car" (the features, comfort...whatever) and are not really interested in raw performance.
Let's drop the silly little kid attitude for a minute and look at reality for a second: a 525i, an IS250 (etc.) are very quick cars. For most people their performance is more than adequate enough.
06-18-09 | 02:06 PM
#49
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
We've been trough it a 1000 times, havent we? You only read what you want to read in my posts. I clearly wrote its not just the power, but when it comes to luxury, or premium cars, what in your opinion defines such a category? I'd say its power, refinement, accessories, materials, build quality, ride quality, reliability, etc.
Have you ever been to Japan? In Japan some of the most prestigious luxury cars have cloth seats. I believe the Toyota Century is even offered with them. In Europe and many Asian markets, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cloth seats in luxury cars.
My current Mercedes E230 has cloth seats and I never even think about when I am driving the car. The car feels luxurious and posh to me, despite cloth seats. There's more to a car than what the seats are made off or if it has fancy gadgets.
Now, what makes you think I am trying to excuse the actions of the Japanese or Germans during World War II? I am not. I am mentioning the clear facts available to us right now. BOTH Germany and Japan made use of slave labor. Fact. If you happened to be a German or Japanese firm who was serving the nations wartime needs, you had to do everything possible to keep production running and this was only possible through slave labors.
He has therefore no formal claim for compensation. I don't really see why the Germans should compensate him. Soldiers in war don't get compensated by their former enemies unless in special cases I believe.
Oh, I see, the "small gutless engine". Wow, what a "POS" that car must be! Give me a Toyota Camry V6 any day!
Well it depends on how you look at it. Some people view Lexus as a brand that showed the world what a true modern luxury car should be like. Seriously, BMW and MB took advantage of the fact that they had no competition and their products were stale, decade long production cycles, their technology was outdated. The original LS400 blew them out of the water. It made the W126 S class and E32 7 series look and feel antiquated.
Well you can wave that prestige flag all you want, but its even harder to argue that MB and BMW in US do not have products that suit the needs (and income) of many car buyers. Like I said before, Toyota and Lexus have cars that compete in every damn category except super cars, while MB and BMW only have very limited market, otherwise they will hurt their "prestige".
What should BMW and Mercedes do? They build cars that appeal to a certain crowd. What you want them to do is basically appeal to a broader spectrum of the market, is that right? Why?
And you're completely off with your "Lexus have cars that compete in every damn category" statement. Where's the Z4 rival from Lexus? Don't get me started on Europe and the rest of the world where Lexus refuses to adapt.
Lexus sales in the US are driven by the ES and RX - the cheapest Lexus products around. Cheap products sell in greater numbers than more expensive products. Right? Right.
Prestige? Let me say this one more time. The history of BMW and especially Mercedes is something Lexus can never match. Lexus and BMW and Mercedes are competitors, but some people view Lexus as a rather superficial brand with no real history and prestige compared to its European rivals.
And let me make this clear: I don't care about brand prestige. But one cannot deny that it is useful for the brands image. And if you're ever in the BMW, Porsche or Mercedes museum, I hope you'll feel some respect for those brands, especially Mercedes and BMW - the brands from which Lexus got their inspiration from.
Your Lexus bias is incredible.
06-18-09 | 03:01 PM
#50
All those aspects you mentioned are essential to luxury cars. What defines a luxury car is a little more difficult to answer because of different perceptions people have.
Have you ever driven a 730d or a 320d? I don't think for one moment that they are gutless. They're quick cars in their own right. Fast enough. And I don't think that a 730d comes with cloth seats. Also, what makes leather so special in the first place - or cloth so bad?
Have you ever been to Japan? In Japan some of the most prestigious luxury cars have cloth seats. I believe the Toyota Century is even offered with them. In Europe and many Asian markets, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cloth seats in luxury cars.
My current Mercedes E230 has cloth seats and I never even think about when I am driving the car. The car feels luxurious and posh to me, despite cloth seats. There's more to a car than what the seats are made off or if it has fancy gadgets.
Have you ever driven a 730d or a 320d? I don't think for one moment that they are gutless. They're quick cars in their own right. Fast enough. And I don't think that a 730d comes with cloth seats. Also, what makes leather so special in the first place - or cloth so bad?
Have you ever been to Japan? In Japan some of the most prestigious luxury cars have cloth seats. I believe the Toyota Century is even offered with them. In Europe and many Asian markets, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cloth seats in luxury cars.
My current Mercedes E230 has cloth seats and I never even think about when I am driving the car. The car feels luxurious and posh to me, despite cloth seats. There's more to a car than what the seats are made off or if it has fancy gadgets.
So if I was to select between Accord that has all these and a BMW that had none of these, I'd pick the Accord despite BMW's heritage or "premium" badge.
It was official policy in Imperial Japan to use "imported laborers" from abroad during the war because of manpower shortages. The same thing went on in Germany. Do some searching on the net or in a library. You can bet that Toyota used slave labor during World War II. Everyone else did - Mitsubishi, Nakajima and so forth.
Now, what makes you think I am trying to excuse the actions of the Japanese or Germans during World War II? I am not. I am mentioning the clear facts available to us right now. BOTH Germany and Japan made use of slave labor. Fact. If you happened to be a German or Japanese firm who was serving the nations wartime needs, you had to do everything possible to keep production running and this was only possible through slave labors.
He'd lose a lot of respect for me if I bought a BMW.
I am bringing up a fact that for some people dictates brand prestige. The Europeans have it, Lexus is making it. The difference is that Lexus can never really equal the history and heritage of its European luxury rivals. Do I need to explain why or can you figure that out yourself?
The W126 S class was developed in 1972 and released on the market in 1979. This includes the 420' model that the LS400 competed with because the 420' engine has its roots in a smaller displacement V8 which Mercedes actually developed in the 1960s, the 350SE I believe it was called. Essentially, the 420SEL had an engine under the hood that was from the '60s. Of course the W126 was outdated when the LS400 appeared. That's no secret.
What on earth are you talking about?
What should BMW and Mercedes do? They build cars that appeal to a certain crowd. What you want them to do is basically appeal to a broader spectrum of the market, is that right? Why?
And you're completely off with your "Lexus have cars that compete in every damn category" statement. Where's the Z4 rival from Lexus? Don't get me started on Europe and the rest of the world where Lexus refuses to adapt.
What should BMW and Mercedes do? They build cars that appeal to a certain crowd. What you want them to do is basically appeal to a broader spectrum of the market, is that right? Why?
And you're completely off with your "Lexus have cars that compete in every damn category" statement. Where's the Z4 rival from Lexus? Don't get me started on Europe and the rest of the world where Lexus refuses to adapt.
You're just not getting my point, and I'll have to repeat it for the last time. By having two separate divisions, they can have a full range of cars that appeal in every price category. Lexus does not need to adapt in Europe by building lesser cars, they have Toyota models to compete with lesser models from BMW and MB. They do however need to expand their network and brand awareness.
BTW, Lexus is a huge success in Russia.
And remind me once again please, what models drive MB/BMW sales in Yurop?
Prestige? Let me say this one more time. The history of BMW and especially Mercedes is something Lexus can never match. Lexus and BMW and Mercedes are competitors, but some people view Lexus as a rather superficial brand with no real history and prestige compared to its European rivals.
And let me make this clear: I don't care about brand prestige. But one cannot deny that it is useful for the brands image. And if you're ever in the BMW, Porsche or Mercedes museum, I hope you'll feel some respect for those brands, especially Mercedes and BMW - the brands from which Lexus got their inspiration from.
Your Lexus bias is incredible.
And let me make this clear: I don't care about brand prestige. But one cannot deny that it is useful for the brands image. And if you're ever in the BMW, Porsche or Mercedes museum, I hope you'll feel some respect for those brands, especially Mercedes and BMW - the brands from which Lexus got their inspiration from.
Your Lexus bias is incredible.
And I am not biased towards Lexus at all. Sure they are my favorite brand since I've been a Lexus owner since 02, but if you read my posts in other threads you will see that I critique them a lot and have been quite disappointed in them since the whole L-finesse. I've clearly said that the new E class completely blew the current GS out of the water. Hell I've even been banned from this forum for being a bit too explicid in my critisism of a particular Lexus model.
06-19-09 | 01:14 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
Well everybody likes their car a certain way, for instance I like my car to have smooth and refined motor that also develops plenty of power, I like leather, wood, nice stereo, and while I don't like many gadgets, I do like all the controls to be automatic.
So if I was to select between Accord that has all these and a BMW that had none of these, I'd pick the Accord despite BMW's heritage or "premium" badge.
So if I was to select between Accord that has all these and a BMW that had none of these, I'd pick the Accord despite BMW's heritage or "premium" badge.
But you have to remember that Europe isn't as wild about "gadgets" as the North American market. Mainstream cars here are practically stripper models and it is expected that luxury brands offer models in cheaper trim with just the most basic of options.
My Mercedes E230 has a navigaton system, electric windows and a sunroof as well as the five speed automatic. I ain't complaining because that's all I need. I'm happy with the normal radio that the car was equipped in. Basically, despite this car being virtually "empty", I'm happy with it.
In two months the company lease expires and I'll hopefully have made up my mind about my first privately owned car in Germany. The Citroen C5, Skoda Superb and BMW 1 series are the top three contenders at the moment.
You can do it yourself. Look on the internet or a library.
I can imagine Toyota did use slave labor given the policy of Imperial Japan at the time. Their rivals certainly used slave labor.
Its really a whole separate topic, we can take it to PM or you can open another thead on it. But I'll say this, because Germans decided to attack the whole world, he spent several years of his life fighting them, in miserable conditions, risking his life, and has health problems to show for it.
They did? So those 50-60 million German citizens at that time all collectively decided they wanted a war against the whole world? Where did you learn your history?
The dictator of Germany at that time sought a war to avenge Germany's mistreatment after World War I. Hitler had full authority over the German armed forces at that time. He could send them in wherever he wished. I seriously doubt your average German wanted a war. Your average German most likely wanted his/her nations pride back - which Hitler basically achieved prior to the invasion of Poland.
And you're forgetting something important. Japan was an aggressor in World War II, too. What are you doing driving a Toyota/Lexus?
*Sarcasm intended*If you think like that, boy, then maybe you should write a letter to all those Israeli citizens who buy German products (not just automobiles).
Interesting to see how you tick.
I don't understand how you can compare a what? A V6 Camry to a BMW 318i / 318d. What's the big deal? Some people want a BMW but they don't want the best performance possible. A 318i or the diesel variant suits their needs. This car is not a "POS". It's a fine machine in its own right that is created because there is a market out there for it. Maybe you should drive a 318i first and then talk. And maybe you shouldn't compare the performance of a 318i to an IS-F when you're making your final remarks about its "sluggish performance".
Seriously, you seem to have issues if you think in such narrow minded terms. Try selling a V6 Camry in Europe - it will flop big time. Honda is having no luck selling their Legend (Acura RL) in this market and Hyundai was smart enough not to even offer the Genesis here. Toyota learned from their mistake, took the Camry off the European market and probably shelved all plans for selling the Avalon here. The vast majority of mainstream car customers here are not performance oriented. They want cars that suit their needs and are adequately powered. A V6 Camry is overpowered - a 2.0 TDI Passat isn't. That's the deal in Europe.
Some people value brand prestige. To them it it is a big deal. And it is also important in a way because it is a testimony to how long a brand has been around and what they have done. That's what I have been trying to say. Don't turn things around, please.
The W126 S class was produced and sold for so long because it was a damn fine car (my father had the 300SD Turbodiesel) and very successful. Beautiful design inside and out. Classy beyond words. Probably the most beautiful S class ever in my opinion.
Oh, and Mercedes CAN overcharge for their products. They have a name. Lexus would do the same if they could. Oh wait, they're doing it now (even in Europe).
On the other hand Lexus is seriously missing out on the fun roadster segment. No Z4, Boxster, TT or SLK competitor. This is a valid argument and a valid question. Why, Lexus? Why not?
You're just not getting my point, and I'll have to repeat it for the last time. By having two separate divisions, they can have a full range of cars that appeal in every price category. Lexus does not need to adapt in Europe by building lesser cars, they have Toyota models to compete with lesser models from BMW and MB. They do however need to expand their network and brand awareness.
The European mainstream companies have raised their products to the premium segment. You can find well-equipped and luxurious Citroen C5s or Skoda Superbs that might on paper compete with BMW or Mercedes, but in reality don't. Someone going for a Citroen C5 or Skoda Superb wants "good-value-for-money luxury" (like me for instance). A 3er, A4 or C class, even in stripper form, are hardly good value.
Lexus lack of lower premium models kills them in Europe. And their lack of diesels. And their lack of cheaper trims. Their extremely poor resale value, too. Don't forget their small dealership network (have not even seen a Lexus dealer in Stuttgart!!!).
The fact is: Lexus lacks appeal in some of the most important European markets. The Germans prefer their cars. The wealthy French and Italians prefer German while their general populations drive mainstream French and Italian products. Look up the sales of Toyota in France or Italy.
Maybe you should go to France or Italy sometime. I have been there. The French are very patriotic to begin with, but they're also not the wealthiest and they get better deals on a Citroen or Peugeot than on a Toyota product.
How huge?
Someone wants a BMW because of the badge. That's their business and their business alone. It's their money. Let them buy what they want and what suits their needs. They probably think you have "shortcomings" for buying a "Lexus" (in their mind: "Toyota"). Who cares?
Brand prestige is important to some people. You can accept this or you can't.
Why do people buy Rolex watches? The badge. The prestige associated with them. The design. There are many reasons. Are you going to put on your Casio and label all those Rolex wearers as people with "shortcomings"?
And I am not biased towards Lexus at all. Sure they are my favorite brand since I've been a Lexus owner since 02, but if you read my posts in other threads you will see that I critique them a lot and have been quite disappointed in them since the whole L-finesse. I've clearly said that the new E class completely blew the current GS out of the water. Hell I've even been banned from this forum for being a bit too explicid in my critisism of a particular Lexus model.
I always enjoy a good argument and I have indeed seen your other posts.
But also try to understand that different markets have different expectations. Maybe my next car will even be a BMW 318i - and I wonder if you will label me as someone with "shortcomings" who drives a "POS"...
06-19-09 | 07:05 PM
#52
I respect your opinion.
But you have to remember that Europe isn't as wild about "gadgets" as the North American market. Mainstream cars here are practically stripper models and it is expected that luxury brands offer models in cheaper trim with just the most basic of options.
My Mercedes E230 has a navigaton system, electric windows and a sunroof as well as the five speed automatic. I ain't complaining because that's all I need. I'm happy with the normal radio that the car was equipped in. Basically, despite this car being virtually "empty", I'm happy with it.
In two months the company lease expires and I'll hopefully have made up my mind about my first privately owned car in Germany. The Citroen C5, Skoda Superb and BMW 1 series are the top three contenders at the moment.
You can do it yourself. Look on the internet or a library.
I can imagine Toyota did use slave labor given the policy of Imperial Japan at the time. Their rivals certainly used slave labor.
I didn't see any mention of that in the BMW museum. Mercedes mentions the "dark chapters" of the brand in their museum, though.
"The Germans decided to attack the whole world."
They did? So those 50-60 million German citizens at that time all collectively decided they wanted a war against the whole world? Where did you learn your history?
The dictator of Germany at that time sought a war to avenge Germany's mistreatment after World War I. Hitler had full authority over the German armed forces at that time. He could send them in wherever he wished. I seriously doubt your average German wanted a war. Your average German most likely wanted his/her nations pride back - which Hitler basically achieved prior to the invasion of Poland.
And you're forgetting something important. Japan was an aggressor in World War II, too. What are you doing driving a Toyota/Lexus? *Sarcasm intended*
If you think like that, boy, then maybe you should write a letter to all those Israeli citizens who buy German products (not just automobiles).
"Inferior in every possible way."
Interesting to see how you tick.
I don't understand how you can compare a what? A V6 Camry to a BMW 318i / 318d. What's the big deal? Some people want a BMW but they don't want the best performance possible. A 318i or the diesel variant suits their needs. This car is not a "POS". It's a fine machine in its own right that is created because there is a market out there for it. Maybe you should drive a 318i first and then talk. And maybe you shouldn't compare the performance of a 318i to an IS-F when you're making your final remarks about its "sluggish performance".
Seriously, you seem to have issues if you think in such narrow minded terms. Try selling a V6 Camry in Europe - it will flop big time. Honda is having no luck selling their Legend (Acura RL) in this market and Hyundai was smart enough not to even offer the Genesis here. Toyota learned from their mistake, took the Camry off the European market and probably shelved all plans for selling the Avalon here. The vast majority of mainstream car customers here are not performance oriented. They want cars that suit their needs and are adequately powered. A V6 Camry is overpowered - a 2.0 TDI Passat isn't. That's the deal in Europe.
Let me put it this way. Brand prestige doesn't influence what I would personally buy. I look for what suits my needs and what I like. Brand prestige be damned.
Some people value brand prestige. To them it it is a big deal. And it is also important in a way because it is a testimony to how long a brand has been around and what they have done. That's what I have been trying to say. Don't turn things around, please.
Really? The W126 S class was discontinued in 1991. The W140 S class was then rolled out. Are you telling me Mercedes engineers came up with the W140 S class in 1989 after the LS400 stole the show? Get real. The moment the W126 S class was released the development for the W140 was started. My best guess is that the W140 development started in earnest around the early to mid 1980s.
The W126 S class was produced and sold for so long because it was a damn fine car (my father had the 300SD Turbodiesel) and very successful. Beautiful design inside and out. Classy beyond words. Probably the most beautiful S class ever in my opinion.
Oh, and Mercedes CAN overcharge for their products. They have a name. Lexus would do the same if they could. Oh wait, they're doing it now (even in Europe).
Wait a minute. Why should BMW create a car that rivals the Camry or Corolla (Sienna!?!?)? Are you for real?
On the other hand Lexus is seriously missing out on the fun roadster segment. No Z4, Boxster, TT or SLK competitor. This is a valid argument and a valid question. Why, Lexus? Why not?
BMW and Mercedes don't have a lesser brand that competes in the mainstream market. They therefore sell cars in the lower premium market and these are your basic 3er, A4 and C class models (A3, 1er, B class and so forth).
The European mainstream companies have raised their products to the premium segment. You can find well-equipped and luxurious Citroen C5s or Skoda Superbs that might on paper compete with BMW or Mercedes, but in reality don't. Someone going for a Citroen C5 or Skoda Superb wants "good-value-for-money luxury" (like me for instance). A 3er, A4 or C class, even in stripper form, are hardly good value.
Lexus lack of lower premium models kills them in Europe. And their lack of diesels. And their lack of cheaper trims. Their extremely poor resale value, too. Don't forget their small dealership network (have not even seen a Lexus dealer in Stuttgart!!!).
The fact is: Lexus lacks appeal in some of the most important European markets. The Germans prefer their cars. The wealthy French and Italians prefer German while their general populations drive mainstream French and Italian products. Look up the sales of Toyota in France or Italy.
Maybe you should go to France or Italy sometime. I have been there. The French are very patriotic to begin with, but they're also not the wealthiest and they get better deals on a Citroen or Peugeot than on a Toyota product.
How huge?
The bread and butter sales of Audi, BMW and Mercedes are the A4, 3er and C class followed by the A3, 1er and A/B class and then the A6, 5er and E class. You can look it up on Autobild.
Why are you attacking people who see things differently?
Someone wants a BMW because of the badge. That's their business and their business alone. It's their money. Let them buy what they want and what suits their needs. They probably think you have "shortcomings" for buying a "Lexus" (in their mind: "Toyota"). Who cares?
Brand prestige is important to some people. You can accept this or you can't.
Why do people buy Rolex watches? The badge. The prestige associated with them. The design. There are many reasons. Are you going to put on your Casio and label all those Rolex wearers as people with "shortcomings"?
That's good to hear.
I always enjoy a good argument and I have indeed seen your other posts.
But also try to understand that different markets have different expectations. Maybe my next car will even be a BMW 318i - and I wonder if you will label me as someone with "shortcomings" who drives a "POS"...
But you have to remember that Europe isn't as wild about "gadgets" as the North American market. Mainstream cars here are practically stripper models and it is expected that luxury brands offer models in cheaper trim with just the most basic of options.
My Mercedes E230 has a navigaton system, electric windows and a sunroof as well as the five speed automatic. I ain't complaining because that's all I need. I'm happy with the normal radio that the car was equipped in. Basically, despite this car being virtually "empty", I'm happy with it.
In two months the company lease expires and I'll hopefully have made up my mind about my first privately owned car in Germany. The Citroen C5, Skoda Superb and BMW 1 series are the top three contenders at the moment.
You can do it yourself. Look on the internet or a library.
I can imagine Toyota did use slave labor given the policy of Imperial Japan at the time. Their rivals certainly used slave labor.
I didn't see any mention of that in the BMW museum. Mercedes mentions the "dark chapters" of the brand in their museum, though.
"The Germans decided to attack the whole world."
They did? So those 50-60 million German citizens at that time all collectively decided they wanted a war against the whole world? Where did you learn your history?
The dictator of Germany at that time sought a war to avenge Germany's mistreatment after World War I. Hitler had full authority over the German armed forces at that time. He could send them in wherever he wished. I seriously doubt your average German wanted a war. Your average German most likely wanted his/her nations pride back - which Hitler basically achieved prior to the invasion of Poland.
And you're forgetting something important. Japan was an aggressor in World War II, too. What are you doing driving a Toyota/Lexus?
*Sarcasm intended*If you think like that, boy, then maybe you should write a letter to all those Israeli citizens who buy German products (not just automobiles).
"Inferior in every possible way."
Interesting to see how you tick.
I don't understand how you can compare a what? A V6 Camry to a BMW 318i / 318d. What's the big deal? Some people want a BMW but they don't want the best performance possible. A 318i or the diesel variant suits their needs. This car is not a "POS". It's a fine machine in its own right that is created because there is a market out there for it. Maybe you should drive a 318i first and then talk. And maybe you shouldn't compare the performance of a 318i to an IS-F when you're making your final remarks about its "sluggish performance".
Seriously, you seem to have issues if you think in such narrow minded terms. Try selling a V6 Camry in Europe - it will flop big time. Honda is having no luck selling their Legend (Acura RL) in this market and Hyundai was smart enough not to even offer the Genesis here. Toyota learned from their mistake, took the Camry off the European market and probably shelved all plans for selling the Avalon here. The vast majority of mainstream car customers here are not performance oriented. They want cars that suit their needs and are adequately powered. A V6 Camry is overpowered - a 2.0 TDI Passat isn't. That's the deal in Europe.
Let me put it this way. Brand prestige doesn't influence what I would personally buy. I look for what suits my needs and what I like. Brand prestige be damned.
Some people value brand prestige. To them it it is a big deal. And it is also important in a way because it is a testimony to how long a brand has been around and what they have done. That's what I have been trying to say. Don't turn things around, please.
Really? The W126 S class was discontinued in 1991. The W140 S class was then rolled out. Are you telling me Mercedes engineers came up with the W140 S class in 1989 after the LS400 stole the show? Get real. The moment the W126 S class was released the development for the W140 was started. My best guess is that the W140 development started in earnest around the early to mid 1980s.
The W126 S class was produced and sold for so long because it was a damn fine car (my father had the 300SD Turbodiesel) and very successful. Beautiful design inside and out. Classy beyond words. Probably the most beautiful S class ever in my opinion.
Oh, and Mercedes CAN overcharge for their products. They have a name. Lexus would do the same if they could. Oh wait, they're doing it now (even in Europe).
Wait a minute. Why should BMW create a car that rivals the Camry or Corolla (Sienna!?!?)? Are you for real?
On the other hand Lexus is seriously missing out on the fun roadster segment. No Z4, Boxster, TT or SLK competitor. This is a valid argument and a valid question. Why, Lexus? Why not?
BMW and Mercedes don't have a lesser brand that competes in the mainstream market. They therefore sell cars in the lower premium market and these are your basic 3er, A4 and C class models (A3, 1er, B class and so forth).
The European mainstream companies have raised their products to the premium segment. You can find well-equipped and luxurious Citroen C5s or Skoda Superbs that might on paper compete with BMW or Mercedes, but in reality don't. Someone going for a Citroen C5 or Skoda Superb wants "good-value-for-money luxury" (like me for instance). A 3er, A4 or C class, even in stripper form, are hardly good value.
Lexus lack of lower premium models kills them in Europe. And their lack of diesels. And their lack of cheaper trims. Their extremely poor resale value, too. Don't forget their small dealership network (have not even seen a Lexus dealer in Stuttgart!!!).
The fact is: Lexus lacks appeal in some of the most important European markets. The Germans prefer their cars. The wealthy French and Italians prefer German while their general populations drive mainstream French and Italian products. Look up the sales of Toyota in France or Italy.
Maybe you should go to France or Italy sometime. I have been there. The French are very patriotic to begin with, but they're also not the wealthiest and they get better deals on a Citroen or Peugeot than on a Toyota product.
How huge?
The bread and butter sales of Audi, BMW and Mercedes are the A4, 3er and C class followed by the A3, 1er and A/B class and then the A6, 5er and E class. You can look it up on Autobild.
Why are you attacking people who see things differently?
Someone wants a BMW because of the badge. That's their business and their business alone. It's their money. Let them buy what they want and what suits their needs. They probably think you have "shortcomings" for buying a "Lexus" (in their mind: "Toyota"). Who cares?
Brand prestige is important to some people. You can accept this or you can't.
Why do people buy Rolex watches? The badge. The prestige associated with them. The design. There are many reasons. Are you going to put on your Casio and label all those Rolex wearers as people with "shortcomings"?
That's good to hear.
I always enjoy a good argument and I have indeed seen your other posts.
But also try to understand that different markets have different expectations. Maybe my next car will even be a BMW 318i - and I wonder if you will label me as someone with "shortcomings" who drives a "POS"...
I'm just gonna say this, its either im not stating my point clearly, or you are not understanding it clearly. MB and BMW have full range of cars competing in EU, but not in the US. They don't have anything to compete with your every day Toyotas and Hondas. You ask why should they? Because that would expand their sales, and trust me on this, if they could figure out how to sneak cheaper models in the US without hurting their image, they would.
On the other hand you're saying Lexus is the other way in EU - they dont have anything competing with lowed end BMW/MB/Audis. But its really not necessary for them because they have Toyota taking care of that. Perhaps you're right that they might be missing out on the consumers who still want a premium badge but with less options and smaller motors, but then they will save the same dillema as MB and BMW in the US - hurting their image. Plus, the lesser models are probably not profitable enough, and if they steal sales from the more expensive models, that might not be a good thing. I'm certainly not Lexus' chairman of finances or decision making, I'm sure they have a reason why they do things the way they do them.
As far as success in Russia, I believe they are selling way more than they expected. I believe they are also very profitable in developing markets - Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa. Mike (1SICKLEX) might be more familiar with that than I am.
Also, one last thing on the prestige. Even if Lexus has no prestige or is empty as a brand, then it is even moreso amazing how succesful they have been. To outsell MB and BMW with their first and only car, on the first year, and continue to be #1 seller through most of their history, is just astonishing. Hundai, on the contrary, does not seem to be anywhere near as succesful with their admitedly superb Genesis. How do you explain it? I'm thinking maybe the "Toyota Link" isn't a bad thing afterall? People who appreciated Toyota getting them out of their junk American cars of the 70ies and the 80ies also appreciated Lexus for getting them out of their stale overpriced MB/BMW perhaps?
Last edited by Och; 06-19-09 at 07:11 PM.
06-19-09 | 11:24 PM
#53
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,279
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From: CA
Incorrect. The US version of the 1 series might be equipped to make it look/feel premium, but its basic built is cheap and it is sold elsewhere in the world as a cheap crapbucket.
For example Toyota makes a sporty, premium Camry for Australia. I'll take that over the 1 Series in a heartbeat.
For example Toyota makes a sporty, premium Camry for Australia. I'll take that over the 1 Series in a heartbeat.
Lol, it's common knowledge that Audi has been executing it's business plan with smoking results over the last ten years. In fact, they are arguably THE most healthy and well positioned luxury brand going forward over the next 5-10 years, and every piece of quantitative data shows it. There are markets outside of the US, and I know we Americans like to sometimes believe we are representative of the world, but Audi sells a lot of friggen' cars to put it bluntly. So as far as your inference that Audi is not "profitable"...uhh...LOL?
Looks like it. Qute frankly heritage doesn't mean jack when you're driving a dog slow diesel with "premium badge" but manual everything and cloth upholstery and getting gunned down by a V6 camry with leather and automatic everything.
And as far as heritage and museum goes, do they mention anything about using slave labor and commiting various crimes during WW2? Or that Dr. Porsche was a war criminal? Much to be proud of, right?
And as far as heritage and museum goes, do they mention anything about using slave labor and commiting various crimes during WW2? Or that Dr. Porsche was a war criminal? Much to be proud of, right?
And 1SICk was right, this was an "och" post to have to read. I never really thought I'd read somebody bold enough here try and use the same sad rhetoric that attempts to flame German car companies with strokes of anti-Natzi German sentiments. Evoking WWII? Alright, buddy, I guess we all know where you are coming from now. When you buy that Bimmer remember you're supporting Hitler's little angels....:\ Yeah, we know where this lame ball is going.
Last edited by FKL; 06-19-09 at 11:59 PM.
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