Lexus to boost hybrid production (+ sales/dealership info)
07-19-07, 06:17 AM
#31
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Or it could be that you guys have a different point than mine. Your point is that the 600h gets better mileage and emissions ratings than the BMW and MB V12's. And it does. Mine is that playing up the 20-22 mpg LS 600h as an eco-friendly car is pretty silly.
You say potato, I say potaaaahto.
You say potato, I say potaaaahto.
07-19-07, 06:31 AM
#32
It's a mater of relativity.
In relation to Priuses, Corollas, Camrys, Accords, and Civics...22MPG isn't anything to sneeze at.
In comparison to the BMW 760Li and MB S600, the cars that the Lexus was designed to compete with, it's a noticeable difference.
Compared to the Ford GT and Murcielago, the LS 600hL looks like Al Gore.
You see what we are saying here?
In relation to Priuses, Corollas, Camrys, Accords, and Civics...22MPG isn't anything to sneeze at.
In comparison to the BMW 760Li and MB S600, the cars that the Lexus was designed to compete with, it's a noticeable difference.
Compared to the Ford GT and Murcielago, the LS 600hL looks like Al Gore.
You see what we are saying here?
07-19-07, 07:31 AM
#34
Exactly.
Everyone has their perception of value.
The value of a V12-powered vehicle, hybrid or otherwise, is not "eco-friendly." It can be more eco-friendly than others, but that does not mean it's eco-friendly. An interesting fact that the LS600hL, as "un"eco-friendly as it is, is still much better than most V6s out there, and even some V4 vehicles on the road. That, by itself, deserves an eco-friendly remark.
"Gives more to the driver, takes less from the world." Yeah, less. Doesn't mean none, just less...
Everyone has their perception of value.
The value of a V12-powered vehicle, hybrid or otherwise, is not "eco-friendly." It can be more eco-friendly than others, but that does not mean it's eco-friendly. An interesting fact that the LS600hL, as "un"eco-friendly as it is, is still much better than most V6s out there, and even some V4 vehicles on the road. That, by itself, deserves an eco-friendly remark.
"Gives more to the driver, takes less from the world." Yeah, less. Doesn't mean none, just less...
07-19-07, 10:28 AM
#35
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Or it could be that you guys have a different point than mine. Your point is that the 600h gets better mileage and emissions ratings than the BMW and MB V12's. And it does. Mine is that playing up the 20-22 mpg LS 600h as an eco-friendly car is pretty silly.
You say potato, I say potaaaahto.
You say potato, I say potaaaahto.
07-19-07, 12:26 PM
#36
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1) Aren't emissions measured with the car warm, and sitting at idle? If so, then that isn't telling us everything about the total number of bad particles that are going to be blown out the exhaust pipe while driving down the road.
2) I believe that emissions are measured in parts per million (PPM). If you have 2 engines that return the same emissions ratings, one gets 20 MPG, the other gets 40 MPG on the highway, then it stands to reason that the car getting 20 MPG is burning twice as much fuel, and blowing twice as much exhaust out the tailpipe. Twice as much exhaust would mean twice the number of million parts being sent into the atmosphere. Same PPM, but twice the volume, resulting in twice the emissions.
Again, I don't have time to research this right now, so I might be off base. Someone feel free to post some links/info that would prove otherwise.
07-19-07, 03:56 PM
#37
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07-19-07, 04:31 PM
#38
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07-19-07, 05:33 PM
#39
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A couple of thoughts on that subject. And I don't have the time to research this, so I'm just making some logical guesses.
1) Aren't emissions measured with the car warm, and sitting at idle? If so, then that isn't telling us everything about the total number of bad particles that are going to be blown out the exhaust pipe while driving down the road.
2) I believe that emissions are measured in parts per million (PPM). If you have 2 engines that return the same emissions ratings, one gets 20 MPG, the other gets 40 MPG on the highway, then it stands to reason that the car getting 20 MPG is burning twice as much fuel, and blowing twice as much exhaust out the tailpipe. Twice as much exhaust would mean twice the number of million parts being sent into the atmosphere. Same PPM, but twice the volume, resulting in twice the emissions.
Again, I don't have time to research this right now, so I might be off base. Someone feel free to post some links/info that would prove otherwise.
1) Aren't emissions measured with the car warm, and sitting at idle? If so, then that isn't telling us everything about the total number of bad particles that are going to be blown out the exhaust pipe while driving down the road.
2) I believe that emissions are measured in parts per million (PPM). If you have 2 engines that return the same emissions ratings, one gets 20 MPG, the other gets 40 MPG on the highway, then it stands to reason that the car getting 20 MPG is burning twice as much fuel, and blowing twice as much exhaust out the tailpipe. Twice as much exhaust would mean twice the number of million parts being sent into the atmosphere. Same PPM, but twice the volume, resulting in twice the emissions.
Again, I don't have time to research this right now, so I might be off base. Someone feel free to post some links/info that would prove otherwise.
07-20-07, 12:05 AM
#40
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information is available on fueleconomy.gov
Focus and Fusion share the same engine
The 328i and Focus that meet PZEV standards are not sold in all states.
not PZEV certified
PZEV certified
not PZEV certified
PZEV certified
Last edited by Mr. Jones; 07-20-07 at 12:22 AM.
07-20-07, 12:07 AM
#41
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http://www.greenercars.com/byclass2.html#WGS
as a stated eariler the LS600h's SULEV rating is superior to most other cars on the road.
as a stated eariler the LS600h's SULEV rating is superior to most other cars on the road.
07-20-07, 12:12 AM
#42
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A couple of thoughts on that subject. And I don't have the time to research this, so I'm just making some logical guesses.
1) Aren't emissions measured with the car warm, and sitting at idle? If so, then that isn't telling us everything about the total number of bad particles that are going to be blown out the exhaust pipe while driving down the road.
1) Aren't emissions measured with the car warm, and sitting at idle? If so, then that isn't telling us everything about the total number of bad particles that are going to be blown out the exhaust pipe while driving down the road.
2) I believe that emissions are measured in parts per million (PPM). If you have 2 engines that return the same emissions ratings, one gets 20 MPG, the other gets 40 MPG on the highway, then it stands to reason that the car getting 20 MPG is burning twice as much fuel, and blowing twice as much exhaust out the tailpipe. Twice as much exhaust would mean twice the number of million parts being sent into the atmosphere. Same PPM, but twice the volume, resulting in twice the emissions.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#levii
Last edited by Mr. Jones; 07-20-07 at 12:51 AM.
07-20-07, 12:14 AM
#43
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I wonder do some members only follow links that support the argument they want, while ignoring others?
Last edited by Mr. Jones; 07-20-07 at 12:50 AM.
07-20-07, 12:45 AM
#44
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since nobody else wants to do any research, I've highlighted what proves my arguments. Though I'm sure the anti-Lexus contigent here at clublexus as usual will continue ignoring facts.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4024642
-a warranty prevents the LS600h from achieving PZEV.
-the LS600h does deliver completely on its green image
I'll go ahead and repeat myself. Manufactures are required to sell ZEV vehicles in California (GM's EV1 and Toyota's electric RAV4) or can bypass that by building PZEV vehicles.
The LS600h's fuel economy is superior to most 6cyl awd vehicles. Carbon dioxide emissions depend soley on fuel economy, obviously the LS600h emits more CO2 than basic commuter cars. Carbon dioxide is not yet defined as a pollutant by CARB or the EPA, and not proven to cause global warming.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4024642
Mission: Emissions
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is not at the forefront of emissions ratings; California provides these benchmarks. Emissions efficiency of motor vehicles is measured at the tailpipe in particulate matter.
But there is also a secondary form of emissions: evaporative emissions that escape into the air in the form of fumes. This kind of emission usually occurs during fill-up at the gas station, but also takes place by way of venting from the fuel tank—vaporization of the fuel when the engine is running and heat soak after the car is parked. Depending on the vehicle, evaporative emissions can rival that of tailpipe emissions on hot days when the evaporation threshold is lowered.
California's Alphabet Soup
California's Air Resources Board (CARB) rates its emissions with catchy acronyms while the EPA's rating system uses a zero to ten scale in its "Guide To Green Cars" that allows direct comparisons between different model groups, i.e., compact cars and light trucks. Since California has more stringent emissions criteria and the car companies sell a great deal of cars there, the catchy acronyms get all the attention.
A List of all 2007 PZEV vehicles (non-hybrids)
According to the Golden State, ZEV or Zero Emission Vehicles have zero tailpipe emissions and are 98-percent cleaner than the average new model year vehicle. Only all-electric and fuel-cell vehicles can gain entrance into the ZEV category.
AT-PZEV or Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicles meet SULEV (see below) tailpipe emission standards, carry a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty and have zero evaporative emissions. The Advanced Technology part of the term refers to components such as gas-electric hybrids or compressed natural gas vehicles, but not plain gasoline-powered vehicles.
The best a gasoline-powered car can aspire to is a PZEV or Partial Zero Emission Vehicles rating. Like AT-PZEVs these vehicles also meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty (on emission devices) and have zero evaporative emissions.
The difference between AT-PZEV and PZEV is PZEVs have no electric or other hybrid drive system. Many PZEV vehicles are sold in the states of California, Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine as standard and required equipment and may be available as an option in bordering states.
SULEV or Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicles operate 90-percent cleaner than the average new model year vehicle. The difference between SULEV and PZEV ratings is the lack of evaporative emissions and warranty requirements.
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is not at the forefront of emissions ratings; California provides these benchmarks. Emissions efficiency of motor vehicles is measured at the tailpipe in particulate matter.
But there is also a secondary form of emissions: evaporative emissions that escape into the air in the form of fumes. This kind of emission usually occurs during fill-up at the gas station, but also takes place by way of venting from the fuel tank—vaporization of the fuel when the engine is running and heat soak after the car is parked. Depending on the vehicle, evaporative emissions can rival that of tailpipe emissions on hot days when the evaporation threshold is lowered.
California's Alphabet Soup
California's Air Resources Board (CARB) rates its emissions with catchy acronyms while the EPA's rating system uses a zero to ten scale in its "Guide To Green Cars" that allows direct comparisons between different model groups, i.e., compact cars and light trucks. Since California has more stringent emissions criteria and the car companies sell a great deal of cars there, the catchy acronyms get all the attention.
A List of all 2007 PZEV vehicles (non-hybrids)
According to the Golden State, ZEV or Zero Emission Vehicles have zero tailpipe emissions and are 98-percent cleaner than the average new model year vehicle. Only all-electric and fuel-cell vehicles can gain entrance into the ZEV category.
AT-PZEV or Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicles meet SULEV (see below) tailpipe emission standards, carry a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty and have zero evaporative emissions. The Advanced Technology part of the term refers to components such as gas-electric hybrids or compressed natural gas vehicles, but not plain gasoline-powered vehicles.
The best a gasoline-powered car can aspire to is a PZEV or Partial Zero Emission Vehicles rating. Like AT-PZEVs these vehicles also meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty (on emission devices) and have zero evaporative emissions.
The difference between AT-PZEV and PZEV is PZEVs have no electric or other hybrid drive system. Many PZEV vehicles are sold in the states of California, Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine as standard and required equipment and may be available as an option in bordering states.
SULEV or Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicles operate 90-percent cleaner than the average new model year vehicle. The difference between SULEV and PZEV ratings is the lack of evaporative emissions and warranty requirements.
-the LS600h does deliver completely on its green image
I'll go ahead and repeat myself. Manufactures are required to sell ZEV vehicles in California (GM's EV1 and Toyota's electric RAV4) or can bypass that by building PZEV vehicles.
The LS600h's fuel economy is superior to most 6cyl awd vehicles. Carbon dioxide emissions depend soley on fuel economy, obviously the LS600h emits more CO2 than basic commuter cars. Carbon dioxide is not yet defined as a pollutant by CARB or the EPA, and not proven to cause global warming.
Last edited by Mr. Jones; 07-20-07 at 12:52 AM.
07-20-07, 05:40 AM
#45
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Isn't that the reason why hybrids were failing inspection in states like GA? They couldn't measure the emissions, because the engine wasn't running? So going back to my comment, I believe that emissions are measured at idle, and this doesn't tell us everything about how much a car pollutes in everyday life. My thoughts were that 1/2 the MPG equates to twice the pollution in "real life", all else being similar/equal. I was hoping to discuss and debate that statement.
You evidently didn't read my second statement.
No they don't.
I won't even waste my time on this one. I could spend the next hour listing all the things on the 600h that are the opposite of green (starting with the whole hybrid system onboard).
the figure is not based on mpg, SULEV are allowed a specified amount of pollution.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#levii
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#levii
Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
Focus and Fusion share the same engine
Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
the LS600h does deliver completely on its green image