I think you should, since we have facts posted with links from Mr. Jones. Have your list of facts on why the 600h is the opposite of green, with links, not "thoughts".

An entire world of experts is heralding the LS 600h L a technological marvel, even if they don't like the car. You cannot argue the fact its cleaner and more fuel efficient than anything else in its class.

 

Mr. Jones' links don't address the conversation that I posed, nor do they prove that the 22 MPG 600h is green.


Experts? I hear plenty of comments on this board about how automotive journalists are "idiots", and "don't know their heads from their asses". But when they herald the LS 600 as a technological marvel, they are suddenly experts? That doesn't jive.

Nobody is arguing that the 600h's hybrid V8 doesn't get better mileage than the BMW and MB V12's (wow, how did lexus manage that?). You guys are stuck on that fact, while I'm looking at the bigger picture. If you dropped hybrid technology into a dump truck, raising the gas mileage from 1 MPG to 2 MPG, that's a nice increase. But it's still a big fat hog that gets 2 MPG.

The fact that the 600h is laden with all sorts of fancy new technologies, circuitry, and onboard computer systems doesn't make the car green. Quite the opposite, actually, when you consider all the energy and raw materials that go into developing and producing the car. And when you consider that the car now has to lug around all that extra weight, between the batteries, motors, and circuitry. And then again when you have to dispose of it when the car dies.

Big picture.

I guess that's what makes me a little different. I prefer to see the forest for the trees.

 

Its amazing to me how now internet "experts" want to view car building from scratch since Hybrids appeared. Now they say they consume more in total. People can find and dig anyway to argue and debate something they simply do not like.

We see the bigger picture. LEXUS sees the bigger picture, thus no one else is even close to producing a 600h L, a 450h, a 400h. They can't do it. This is only the first generation of luxury hybrids. They will continue to get better and better.

See this as a real-world experiment. The next generations are going to be sick.

 

Can't? Put money, motivation, and tools into the hands of the right people, and they can do just about anything. It's a matter of whether other car makers feel that putting hybrid technology into luxury cars is a winning, sensible proposition. From what I've seen, it's not. I'll take that 20 MPG V-12 any day.


Why is that amazing? The battle began when other internet "experts" went around spouting how hybrid technology is the best thing since sliced bread, and that you can ignore every fact about the car's physical makeup and origins, except the MPG figure on the window sticker.

 

In case you missed it, BMW & MB etc. are working to put hybrid technology into their cars, there must be very good reasons they are doing that.

 

But how far can your mentality go?

Some people say that any mpg is NOT environmentally friendly because you still take too much from the environment. But then again, most of them still drive a car instead of choosing to walk...

The fact of the matter is that no one is able to say what is best for the environment because of the hundreds of factors that go into the engineering and production of a car.

However, there are some methodologies that are better than another, and Toyota/Lexus has been able to take advantage of such (albeit some) of those technologies in an engineering category that has never been touched before. That is the tagline of the LS600hL.

Let the consumer decide what is best or better for themselves as well as the environment. You've made your decision, and most other members on this forum has done so as well...

Big picture: The forest is nice. Whether or not you look at one tree and chop down the other, that is each person's preference. You can chop one tree, someone else will chop two. And someone will chop a hundred, and someone will chop none.

The best thing about it is that we all have choices in what to do to that forest.

And perhaps, just perhaps, that although many will chop a tree in the forest, only a few will replant a seed. Perhaps hybrids can do just that...

 

Lets see here. A base S550 is 85k. A base S600 is 140k. You get a tt V-12, a couple other tidbits and that is all. A 55k difference.
A base 460L is 70k (I think). A base 600h L is 104k. A 34k difference.
You get
1st LED headlights
All leather dash
AWD
CVT
5.0 V-8 not 4.6
Hybrid tech
other tidbits

Its not up to you and me to decide if its "worth" it. To most, 100k for ANY vehicle is not plausible.

The MARKET decides if its worth it. BMW sold like 20 V-12 760s last month. Benz maybe a couple hundred (not sure).
Lexus has sold out its entire 1st year production run of the 600h L. They have to double production.

The MARKET has decided, it is WORTH it.

 

Impossible. 1SICKLEX said that nobody else can do that. Only Lexus.

 

Regardless of what 1sick might have said, your statement that others are not putting hybrid technology in their luxury cars are wrong, I wasn't referring to any other posts but yours.

 

And you can keep thinking it's a "20 MPG" V12, but under the 2008 EPA ratings, V12 powered German competitors DO NOT achieve 20 MPG EPA. They also do not achieve SULEV emissions rating. Under European standards, the LS hybrid outputs less carbon dioxide emissions than it's V12 competition, and less CO2 than many V8 powered cars.

No matter what facts are presented to you, it seems your mind has already been made up beforehand, and that in your opinion the LS hybrid is not a "green" car. I guess it doesn't matter that the Tahara plant where the LS hybrid is built is a green facility; where locals and plant workers actually go fishing right beside the plant. I guess that doesn't change "the big picture" right? Or the fact that Toyota will pay you $200 to give your old dead batteries to them, and that they are fully recyclable?

The LS hybrid is a contradiction that no other automaker has yet offered except Toyota. It's a car that offers lavish luxury and comfort, and the very cutting edge of technology, but does so while taking less from the environment.

 

Yup. Otherwise the LS600h L would not be a WORLDS FIRST.
When there is ANOTHER brand selling a luxury hybrid that PEOPLE can buy, let me know.

 

I'm still amazed that Lexus figured out how to put hybrid technology into their most expensive car. Not sure how they did it, but they did. They're the FIRST.


I'll be sure to let you know when I find another brand that's made development of a luxury hybrid one of their priorities. You'll be the first person I tell.

 

You sure you don't work for Lexus?

It's a contradiction indeed. A car that claims to be eco-friendly but is as heavy as a big SUV. A car that is positioned as the most luxurious but has a trunk smaller than a Kia. I guess it's more eco-friendly in that they kill more CO2 emitting cows to slather leather all over the dash. A car with 50 more 'calculated' HP than the LS460L but is barely any faster.

It is a technological marvel. A first. Unique. A strange combination of attributes.

I think it's BEST selling point is that it is likely to be a lot quieter than the LS460L. Now that's a luxury...

 

That's a car inspection.

and you evidently didn't visit the site linked.

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#levii

SULEV rating is given based on grams per mile of smog forming pollutants.

both Focus and Fusion offer duratec 4 cylinders and I never said that California requires only one vehicle sold be PZEV rated

Take a wild guess why GM and Ford both with heavy truck/SUV sales are forced to sell multiple PZEV's vehicles.

back to CNW marketing research. Find a "study" where methodology is available which makes peer review possible. Until then it isn't a study and is even insulting to science.

Funny how Hummer has never dared use CNW's research to advertise the Hummer as cleaner than the Prius.

My study says the sun revolves around the earth.

 

Maximum Allowed Grams per Mile
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/rating.htm

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-LEXUS-LS600HL-08.htm
8 or 9 (cali)

take a look at what the competition
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/all-rank3-08.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-M...Z-CL600-07.htm