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Toyota U.S. Hybrid Delay Could Help Rivals (update p.3 - Toyota denies delays)

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Old 08-08-07, 04:51 PM
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Default Toyota U.S. Hybrid Delay Could Help Rivals (update p.3 - Toyota denies delays)

Toyota U.S. Hybrid Delay
Could Help Rivals Close Gap
Lithium-Ion Worries
Will Scale Back Plans
For Slew of New Models
By NORIHIKO SHIROUZU
August 9, 2007

Toyota Motor Corp., which exploited the green image of its gasoline-electric Toyota Prius to propel a U.S. sales surge, has decided to delay by as long as two years the launches of new high-mileage hybrids using lithium-ion battery technology. The slowdown could offer General Motors Corp. and other rivals a chance to close the gap in the race to define future clean-vehicle technology.

Until recently, Toyota was preparing to unleash an aggressive hybrid-product blitz, rolling out a dozen new and redesigned hybrids using new lithium-ion battery technology in the U.S. between 2008 and 2010. Its current hybrids use nickel-metal-hydride batteries. But problems with the lithium-ion technology have forced Toyota to back away from that timetable, people familiar with the company's strategy say.

That marketing push -- critical to Toyota's goal of selling 600,000 hybrids a year in the U.S. by early next decade -- is now on hold, according to Toyota executives knowledgeable about the company's hybrid-product plans for the U.S. market.

Moreover, Toyota postponed plans for hybrid versions of its big and fuel-thirsty Tundra pickup and Sequoia sport-utility vehicle, though the executives added there is a chance Toyota would revive big-truck hybrids and come out with them by 2013 or 2014. GM and Chrysler LLC plan to launch hybrid large SUVs next year, using a system developed jointly by GM, DaimlerChrysler AG and BMW AG.

Toyota hit the brakes on the newer-technology hybrids because of problems with the safety of lithium-ion-battery technology, which the auto maker was counting on to make hybrids even more fuel-efficient and affordable. Because they pack more electricity in the same space and weight, those batteries are expected to allow auto makers to halve the size of the current hybrid-propulsion system using nickel-metal-hydride batteries. That would also make the hybrids substantially cheaper and capable of achieving about 25 to 30 kilometers a liter in normal operation.

Toyota had bet on batteries based on lithium-cobalt-oxide technology. But such batteries have shown a tendency to overheat, catch fire or explode in some cases. Similar concerns have bedeviled laptop-computer makers using lithium-ion batteries made by Japan's Sony Corp.

The batteries Toyota is trying to develop use particles of lithium cobalt oxide. The technology risks a phenomenon called "thermal runaway," when it suffers an electrical short in the system, which could be caused by physical damage to the system in an accident. Experts say lithium-ion batteries in general tend to perform poorly in extreme low or high temperatures.

Tomomi Imai, a Toyota spokesman in Tokyo, declined to comment. But, according to Toyota executives, Sony's experience with lithium-ion batteries for laptops sounded an alarm because the chemistry of the Sony batteries was similar to batteries Toyota was trying to use for future hybrids.

Toyota had planned to use lithium-ion batteries starting with the next-generation Prius, originally scheduled for launch in late 2008. But because of safety concerns, Toyota has decided not to use those batteries in the new Prius, say Toyota executives familiar with the company's plans. The company will use instead the conventional nickel-metal-hydride batteries it has been using in the Prius since its launch in the mid-1990s. The next-generation Prius, using conventional batteries, is now expected to launch in early 2009, a delay of about six months.

The first Toyota hybrid that uses lithium-ion battery technology won't arrive in the U.S. until early 2011 when a derivative of the Prius, a wagon, comes out, company executives say. The Prius wagon had originally been scheduled to hit the market in early 2010, which means it could be delayed by at least a year.

By that time, GM has said it wants to have started production of lithium-ion hybrids. Tony Posawatz, GM's vehicle-line director for the Chevrolet Volt and related hybrid vehicles, said the first of GM's lithium-ion hybrids will be the Saturn VUE Green Line plug-in hybrid, which individuals knowledgeable about GM's product plans say could hit dealer showrooms as early as late 2009. GM also plans to launch by 2010 a plug-in hybrid car called the Volt, based on a design GM unveiled earlier this year at the Detroit Auto Show. GM has selected two supplier groups that are expected to deliver battery packs for testing later this year, Mr. Posawatz said.

Mr. Posawatz, in an interview, expressed confidence that GM's lithium-ion hybrid strategy is on track toward a 2010 launch date, though he said the company isn't ready to commit to that date. Still, GM appears to have a chance to beat Toyota to market with a lithium-ion, extended-range hybrid by more than a year.

Behind GM's confidence in being able to deliver lithium-ion hybrids faster than Toyota is suppliers like A123 Systems, a Watertown, Massachusetts, start-up. A123 has come up with a different kind of lithium-ion battery, based on iron phosphates, that it says is more chemically stable and less likely to overheat and catch on fire. The company is one of a handful of likely candidates to supply lithium-ion batteries to GM. Another possible supplier of such batteries is Compact Power, a unit of South Korean chemical company LG Chem Ltd., which also has come up with batteries with a chemistry that is different from the kind Toyota is pursuing.

"Toyota certainly is a very, very credible and capable company. We view them as just a top-drawer competitor," Mr. Posawatz says. "But we also recognize technology is evolving so fast that the amount of capability any individual company and their partners and supply base can muster is limited."

Lithium-ion hybrids -- including so-called plug-in hybrids that recharge batteries by plugging into the electric grid and that run for 32 to 64 kilometers on electricity alone -- won't likely be high-volume models soon, given their relatively high cost.

Still, if GM can field a plug-in hybrid ahead of Toyota, it could burnish the Detroit auto maker's image as a technology leader. For nearly two decades, GM and its brands have suffered in the U.S. from a reputation for old technology and poor fuel economy -- an image GM executives say is now undeserved.

A senior Toyota executive said the timing for the launch of Toyota's first lithium-ion-battery hybrid model is being decided as part of a medium-term hybrid-product plan, which he said is -- while close to being finalized -- "still very, very fluid in some aspects." The final plan is due before the end of this year. The executive noted that the Prius derivative, most likely Toyota's first lithium-ion hybrid, will hit the market in early 2011 but that there is a force within Toyota's engineering and product-development division that is insisting on launching the model by the end of 2010. In that case, it could be a horse race between Toyota and General Motors.

Delays to the next-generation Toyota hybrids also offer an opportunity for rivals that have bet on clean diesel as a response to demands for more-efficient cars.

Honda Motor Co., for example, is pursuing a multipronged approach to alternative technologies, including a bet on a newly developed diesel engine. As Toyota grapples with lithium-ion technology, John Mendel, a senior Honda executive in the U.S., said the delays will likely provide Honda and others "a big break to build up awareness of an alternative to hybrids, like diesels, that has tremendous benefits in efficiency."

"We think diesel has a real opportunity," Mr. Mendel added.

Honda remains favorable to the long-term potential of lithium-ion technology, said company President Takeo Fukui. But Mr. Fukui said he is skeptical the technology can be made reliable enough for vehicles in the next few years. Mr. Fukui said he and his wife recently bought an electrically assisted hybrid bicycle for 100,000 yen ($842) in Japan, but its lithium-ion battery failed after only six months. The couple had to dish out 40,000 yen to replace it because it wasn't covered by the bike's warranty. "That wouldn't cut in the auto industry," Mr. Fukui said.

By 2009, Honda plans to launch in the U.S. a subcompact hybrid with improved nickel-metal-hydride batteries. A hybrid version of the Civic now costs about $4,000 more than a comparably equipped gasoline-engine Civic model. With the new subcompact, Mr. Fukui says Honda is trying to cut the hybrid premium to less than $2,000 -- about what a consumer pays for a satellite-based navigation system as optional added equipment.

European auto makers, including Volkswagen AG, BMW and the Mercedes-Benz unit of Daimler AG, also plan to field modern diesel engines in U.S. models starting next year. In long-distance highway driving, modern European diesels can often outperform a gasoline-electric hybrid. The challenge for diesel is meeting tough U.S. clean-air rules. European auto makers say they now have the technology to do that, although it will be costly at first.

Toyota doesn't have diesel engines that meet air-quality standards in all 50 U.S. states. Fearful of being left behind if diesels gain in popularity, Toyota last year bought a 5.9% stake in Isuzu Motors Ltd. to gain access to the latter's clean-diesel technology.

Toyota's move to slow hybrid launches comes as the company's president, Katsuaki Watanabe, is starting to decelerate the company's breakneck expansion pace, which vaulted it past GM to be the world's No. 1 auto maker by vehicle sales volume this year.

Mr. Watanabe has expressed concern that Toyota's rapid expansion has strained the company's human and technical resources and undermined the quality of Toyota vehicles.

Last year, Mr. Watanabe told The Wall Street Journal that the company would slow the overall pace of product development by as many as six months to shore up vehicle quality and reliability after a string of recalls and other quality gaffes in recent years. But delays are turning out to be longer when it comes to more technologically complicated hybrid vehicles.

According to a tentative, medium-term hybrid-product plan reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, in addition to the next-generation Prius, Toyota will likely have to delay other new hybrid models as well, by more than one year in most cases and as many as two years in others.

"The delays show the company has been too focused on one type of technology," said Masaki Taketani, a senior analyst at CSM Worldwide, an auto-industry research firm in Michigan. "Toyota would be in big trouble if other types of lithium-ion batteries, or a new breed of clean-burning diesel engines, gained steam as a better fuel-saving proposition to the American consumer."

Toyota still outstrips GM by other measures, such as market capitalization and profitability. Toyota earlier this month reported quarterly net income of $4.1 billion, nearly five times GM's result for the same period. Toyota's financial resources give it a huge advantage in the competition to develop more-fuel-efficient vehicles.

Toyota executives stress that they have only delayed, not abandoned, plans to use longer-range lithium-ion batteries in hybrid vehicles.

Aside from the new lithium-ion Prius wagon, Toyota also plans to launch in the 2011-12 time frame as many as nine other lithium-ion-battery hybrids. Among them are a new wagon-style crossover with three rows of seating based on the Japan-only model called the Wish; a wagon derivative of the Camry; a sporty coupe code named FT-HS, which was shown at the Detroit Auto Show earlier this year as a concept car; and possibly a hybrid version of the redesigned Corolla.

Toyota, according to the knowledgeable executives, is also mulling developing a lithium-ion-battery hybrid version of the RAV4 crossover SUV and the Estima minivan hybrid, currently sold only in Japan, launching them sometime in 2012. But those projects are still "very fluid," one of the executives says.

Write to Norihiko Shirouzu at norihiko.shirouzu@wsj.com
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Old 08-08-07, 05:56 PM
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good article
confirms what ive been most afraid of
toyota investing in the wrong type of lithium-ion technology...
that means FT-HS hybrid might not come out for a while
im guessing FT-HS will come out with 3.5L gasoline engine only first
then later come out with a hybrid drivetrain added onto the 3.5L V6 to give that 400hp figure

but then it is finally good to see GM catching up
time to buy GM stocks?
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Old 08-08-07, 08:46 PM
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Damn. I was worried about this.
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Old 08-08-07, 10:24 PM
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Better safe than sorry.

I would rather have a safe battery, instead of one with plenty of volatile power that can harm people if damaged...
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Old 08-08-07, 10:56 PM
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Damn this sucks. 2010-2012 is such a long time away, the competition's definitely gonna be catching up a lot. At least the production of the FT-HS is basically confirmed.

Great article BTW.
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Old 08-08-07, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
Better safe than sorry.

I would rather have a safe battery, instead of one with plenty of volatile power that can harm people if damaged...
lol, get in, turn car on, get completely fried from the battery ... that definately wouldn't be good for toyota
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Old 08-08-07, 11:52 PM
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So, what's the ETA for the FT-HS?
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Old 08-09-07, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by F1Driver
So, what's the ETA for the FT-HS?
Still a concept. No confirmed year of production...
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Old 08-09-07, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
Still a concept. No confirmed year of production...


few months ago, popular mechanics reporters were interviewing some engineers and managers @ toyota USA and they mentioned that FT-HS was 85% ready for production

most sources were estimating for a 2009 model year release
so this battery technology will set the hybrid version back a long while
im guessing toyota will release a gasoline only version of FT-HS
well i hope so...

most importantly, new gen prius is overdue
people want plug-in, better MPG, better this and that...
this time toyota has failed to deliver

this is so upsetting for me, i was really planning on buying the FT-HS hybrid when it comes out and when i get out of school
it would be my second best wingman, my 2GS being first
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Old 08-09-07, 12:34 PM
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That would also make the hybrids substantially cheaper and capable of achieving about 25 to 30 kilometers a liter in normal operation.
I thought Lithium was very expensive. So will it actually make a hybrid vehicle cheaper or just cheaper in the sense that your gasoline savings will be higher, thus spending the extra money intially is the idea.
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Old 08-09-07, 12:43 PM
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TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - General Motors Corp. has signed an agreement with a battery maker that could propel it ahead of Toyota Motor Corp. in the race to bring plug-in hybrid and electric cars to market, a top company official said Thursday.

A123 Systems Inc., based in Watertown, Mass., already produces millions of nanophosphate lithium-ion batteries for use in cordless power tools, and it plans to apply the technology to automobiles.

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the deal, coupled with a published report that Toyota Motor Corp. would delay launches of lithium-ion battery powered hybrids for up to two years, could give GM the lead in bringing the new clean technology to market.


“I think that our No. 1 competitor has some problems with their technology, and I do think that it very definitely opens a window of opportunity for us to be first to market with a genuine plug-in hybrid,” Lutz said at an automotive industry conference in Traverse City where the battery deal was announced.

The Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with Toyota strategy that it didn’t name, reported Thursday that problems with lithium-ion technology forced Toyota to back away from plans to roll out the vehicles between 2008 and 2010.

Toyota spokesman John McCandless said the company does not comment on its product plans, but he disagreed that the developments give GM an edge.

“No one can leap ahead of anybody until the products get to market,” McCandless said.

Lutz said the lithium-ion battery being discussed by GM is safer and manages heat better than the technology Toyota was using.

He also hopes to be first to market with a pure electric vehicle that has a piston engine as an emergency backup, similar to the Chevrolet Volt prototype that the company unveiled at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January.

A123 expects to have the batteries, which would be flat and similar in appearance but larger than those that power cell phones, ready for GM to test in vehicles by October. GM still hopes to have electrically powered vehicles on the market by the end of 2010.

David Vieau, A123’s president and chief executive, said the technology can be moved from power tools to plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles.

“What you have to do now is put it in a vehicle” to test its thermal properties and see how it stands up to shock and vibration in a car, Vieau said.

Current hybrids, such as the hot-selling Toyota Prius, use nickel-metal-hydride batteries, which are larger than lithium-ion systems. The smaller lithium-ion systems let automakers pack more electric power into a smaller space.

Toyota’s delay was caused by safety problems with the lithium-ion technology, according to the Journal. The newspaper said Toyota was working with lithium-cobalt-oxide technology, which has problems with overheating similar to those that surfaced in Sony laptop computers.

A123 provides batteries made in China for Black & Decker and DeWalt power tools, and plans to develop a flat, rectangular battery for use by GM, Vieau said. The companies expect the batteries to have a life of 10 years with more than 7,000 charge cycles.

GM hopes its Chevrolet Volt prototype will have a range of 40 miles powered by its electric motor, eliminating trips to the gas station for those with shorter commutes.

The Volt would have a small piston engine on board to recharge the battery, extending the car’s range.

Earlier this year, GM signed two battery development contracts with Compact Power Inc. of Troy, Mich., and Frankfurt, Germany-based Continental Automotive Systems.

Compact Power will develop battery cells with its parent, LG Chem of Korea. Continental will use cells being developed jointly by GM and A123.

Lutz said that despite the setback Toyota is not out of the race.

“Never discount Toyota. They’re extremely smart people,” he said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20199624/
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Old 08-09-07, 06:51 PM
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This article is correct in some ways, but it's also making A LOT of assumptions.

Fact is, despite the rumours, we really don't know how far along Toyota's development of lithium ion batteries is. We don't know how close to production Toyota's lithium ion hybrids are, and we also don't know the same for GM.

Lithium ion batteries for cordless tools or laptops are one thing; li-ion for vehicles is something else. There are a lot of battery makers that make stable li-ion batteries for small tools and small applications. As of now, there is no company that has made large, powerful li-ion batteries that are production-ready for automobiles.

It will be an interesting competition between GM and Toyota, and we'll see what happens in the future. As of now, a lot of this is simply talk and boasting from GM. When GM puts a lithium ion hybrid to production before Toyota, then we can talk.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:23 PM
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Even if GM builds the cars, it doesn't mean they will sell more. Personally, I'd wait the extra time for a SAFE Toyota, than get a GM "green" car that may or may not be safe. Toyota cites the Sony laptop batteries catching on fire as an example and is working to fix it. Aren't there cell phone batteries that explode in people's pants? So if GM uses the same batteries as cell phones, isn't it possible that it could still blow the seat of your pants? They are probably aware of it, but using this as an opportunity to release it before Toyota.
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Old 08-09-07, 10:46 PM
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As much as I hate seeing the delay, it probably is for the better. I mean, people are still wary about hybrids (certain members unmentioned) and still worry about failing batteries and $10,000 (or whatever number they happen to pull out of their ***) replacement cost. If the Li-Ion fail to meet specifications, the media will be all over Toyota and you know they'll love to see that.
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Old 08-10-07, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Nextourer
As much as I hate seeing the delay, it probably is for the better. I mean, people are still wary about hybrids (certain members unmentioned) and still worry about failing batteries and $10,000 (or whatever number they happen to pull out of their ***) replacement cost. If the Li-Ion fail to meet specifications, the media will be all over Toyota and you know they'll love to see that.
Its interesting the members of Legacygt.com for the most part are against hybrids. The typical reason is battery failure and like you said, the some times $2000 cost, other times $10,000 and so on. No one really knows, but the Prius has been on the road in Japan for 10 years and we arent being flooded by horror stories of batter replacement.

What gets me the most is people who think the ML320 CDI is a better deal than the RX400h. The RX is cheaper, faster, has more cargo room, runs cleaner, gets signigicantly better gas mileage, better warrant, and for the most part has better features than the ML.
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