mmarshall

I usually agree with your posts, Mike, and the Legend, yes, was a great car in its day, but IMO, it cannot hold a candle to the new RL. The RL, handling-wise, with the SH-AWD, can corner rings around the FWD Legend....and the RL's interior is just about as good, quality-wise, as today's cars get.

SLegacy99

Mmmm...but Honda has the negative connotation of diesels working against them and the fact that they are switching from hybrid to diesel. What does that say to the typical consumer?

mmarshall

It says, to a large extent, what I have been saying for years. While hybrids have extremely low emissions, and buying one is more of an environmental statement than anything else, you can actually get comparable mileage to a gas-hybrid with a LOT less complexity and difficulty of production with a simple diesel (a diesel-hybrid, though, is another matter) . A diesel-engine vehicle doesn't have two separate motors, a super-complex electronic system, or the heavy battery pack that a hybrid does, yet still gets great mileage. And some fire departments won't break into hybrid vehicles after accidents because of the electrical and gas dangers involved).

Diesels, traditionally, have had pollution problems with solid-particulates, or soot (they actually run pretty clean with CO and NOx), but even that is changing with new-technology diesel engines like the bluetec, low-sulfur diesel fuel, and new anti-pollution systems coming up like urea injection.

I think this is just the difference in philosophy between the two companies. Honda has tried Hybrids with the Insight and Civic and, unlike Toyota, just doesn't see them as the wave of the future. I, myself, tend to agree with Honda. In fact, Honda is about to introduce the FCX, the first mass-production fuel-cell car, to the public. That, in some ways, is the REAL wave of the future.....IF we can set up a hydrogen infrastructure for it, something that is now practically nonexistant.

TRDFantasy

Who says diesels will catch on in the US? And we don't know how much of an improvement Toyota's next-gen hybrid tech will bring. For all we know, Toyota's next-gen hybrids could make diesel irrelevant.

Let us see what happens.

mmarshall

True, but like I said, diesel technology is not standing still either. Just ask VW and Mercedes.

Americans are starting to change their ingrained ideas about a lot of things. Dislike of Korean vehicles, dislike of hatchbacks, and dislike of small cars in general are good examples of obsessions that are changing......dislike of diesels may well be next.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I had a Legend Coupe and an SC400. My Legend Coupe was by far the better car. Just as well built, much more sporty, and the 230 HP felt just as powerful as the 250 HP V8 in my SC. Over all both good cars, but when it came to a little bit of sport, the Legend in stock form had much more of it than even the Lexus SC400 of the same era. The Legend is definitely showing its age today, but so is most of the Lexus cars of that same time period. Today cars are just much more advanced than the early to mid 90s. In my all time favorite cars I rank the Legend above my 99 LS400, but I do rank the LS400 as the better over all car.

marshmallo

The current gen RL is doomed. Stick a fork in it.

It does not matter what engine they put in it unless they change
the sheet metal around it.

SLegacy99

Yea, but diesel has been around for awhile. Toyota has alot more potential with hybrids to make a super efficient car. GM also. Now BMWs diesels are very efficient, but in the end youre still using fuel and you will never have a diesel thats capable of 90 MPG, like a Plug in Prius could.

Sure diesels are less complex, I wont disagree with you there, but look at the companies you listed. Chances are the you will fork out alotta dough repairing other issues in your Mercedes than the diesel engine. And VW, well they have an awful reliability rating.

Acura has been around longer than Lexus and yet that havent gained the prestige and capital that Lexus has. If I were them, I would be looking at what Lexus has done to become the number one luxury brand in America.

Take car buyers like my parents. They loved their RX, but also wanted a more power vehicle, but better fuel efficiency. Theyve got some money to spend/ They were willing to spend more on the RX400h than on the ML 320 CDI, because its more efficient and has a greater "green" factor. Acura could grab buyers like that.

SecPole14

Wow. Making blanket statements like, "You will never have a diesel that's capable of 90 mpg" is a little ignorant.

The Astra diesel hybrid "concept" (which could easily be put into production) gets 70 mpg, thanks to the GM/BMW/DCX two-mode hybrid that is less complex and easier to implement than Toyota's HSD.

Edmunds got a staggering (read that with sarcasm) 21.5mpg lifetime rating in their long-term RX400h. The ML320 diesel, on the other hand, has been getting between 25-27 mpg (combined driving) in tests according to Autoweek and the Wall Street Journal (to name a couple). But this is no surprise (to me, at least), as diesels tend to do better than EPA estimates and Toyota's hybrids rarely live up to their claimed mileage figures.

By the way, how "green" are hybrids, really? What happens to that battery 5 days from now if the car is wrecked or 15 years from now when the car is no longer road-worthy or depreciated to the point where the liability of battery failure/replacement makes ownership a financially dubious proposition?

Also, you might be unaware of this, so I'll tell you. Used Jetta diesels are selling for prices HIGHER than their original sticker now in places like the Northeast.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...33/1020/NEWS04

The days of Toyota's virtually unrivaled supremacy in "alternative-energy" vehicles are numbered. I'd like to think that almost anyone who's trying to be objective about the situation should be able to see that.

SLegacy99

1. Obviously a diesel hybrid is capable of more than a gasoline hybrid. Note that I said a diesel hybrid will never be capable of 90 mpg. If youre gonna nitpick Ill further specify. A straight alone diesel will never be able to achieve 90 MPG. And if one did, it would have some serious acceleration problems. The Opel Astra concept also has double the cost from combining the two technologies, therefore it will probably never make it to production.

2. You are mistakend with a 21.5 MPG rating of the RX400h. Its actually 27.5 mpg. Edmunds worst fuel economy rating is listed as 24 mpg. Not sure where you got 21.5 from.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...ticleId=106271

3. Only a percentage of Ni Mh batteries are recyclable, but as the demand has grown these batteries technology to reclaim and reuse is advancing.

4. You would be stupid to buy a Jetta TDI. Diesel fuel is typically more expensive than gasoline. Currently here in the Philly area the difference in 20 cents. So if you are buying a vehicle for economy you might as well save yourself $6k and get a regular Jetta, because chances are you will never recoup the extra 6k in fuel savings, especially when the fuel costs more. You also wont have to wait for a glow plug to warm up.

SecPole14

Sorry about the typo, the point I was trying to make is that the new diesels are just about on par with a fancy gasoline hybrid.

Toyota insists on going it alone, whereas GM, BMW, and DCX have collaborated on two-mode hybrids. The cost will go down over time, and the risk has been spread across several companies. Toyota alone would have a very hard time (technology, development, and cost-wise) taking on GM, BMW, and Mercedes if they continue to work together in the future.

SLegacy99

I can agree to that, but I also have to say that it depends on what you are looking for. An RX400h will get you from 0-60 in under 7 seconds an ML 320 CDI doesnt come close. The RX400h wont pull a camper too well, the ML will.

And don't get me started on the TDI Toureg. $68k for a VW?!? The V8 is only $48k. At a difference of only 3 mpg, you'd really have to be pulling something big to make up for that difference in price.

Nextourer

There's a Corolla diesel, Avensis diesel (D-4D) and the Prius in Europe...

like... the Boeing on Fifth Gear?


They're the pioneers of modern hybrid technology, they have to. I mean they did lease their technology to Nissan if that helps relieve some cost issues. Also, Toyota's philosophy is to create the goods in-house to avoid inventory, quality and other issues.

SLegacy99

Exactly!!!

UDel

I agree, the current RL is an outstanding car and has one of the nicest interiors if not the nicest in its class. The older Legends were great cars at the time but the current RL is much nicer, although the rear could use some work. Just because it is not selling well does not mean it is not a great car. Many people buy cars just based on brand name and what they perceive as prestige and don't really buy based on the actual car and how it compares to its competition, if they did more RLs would be on the streets. It is not just the RL but the new GS and Ms and not selling that well either as well as other cars in the midsize luxury class. I think cars in this class are overpriced and don't offer much over less expensive models which is why they are not selling as well. For the money these cars should perform better and offer much more features standard if people are going to pay 50K or over for them.