Honda could be adding diesels to Acura lineup by 2010
08-13-07, 05:51 PM
#46
I agree about the Infiniti M. I did state I believe the M is the best in its class over all and that includes the interior. Infiniti is coming out with some really good interiors lately. The RL would be my second choice. Frankly, I just find it feels better, looks better, and the seats are much better than the GS seats. For sports seats, the M35/45 takes the cake. For plush seats, the RL is right up there with the best of them IMHO. Much more plush than the GS seats and I would be bold to say rivals the plushness off the LS seats. At least the older LS430 seats. I haven't spent much time at all in the new LS460. As personal taste in looks, I like most of everything in all 3 cars but each car I do have certain issues with.
I guess you could say maybe the RL confuses the driver. The seats are so plush and comfortable you expect a pure luxury ride, but what you get is more of a sporty ride. Not BMW or Infiniti sport, but definitely enough to open your eyes. With the GS, you typically expect the soft comfortable seats, but what you get is slightly harder leather and a firmer seat. Not enough to be a sports seat since it has no real sports support, but it kind of tricks you into thinking Lexus may have upped the sportiness of the GS, but once you drive it you realize it is your typical Lexus. That is not bad at all my any means and many like that, but both the RL and GS are a bit confusing in that way. You'd almost expect the GS seats to be in the RL and the RL seats to be in the GS. It would match each others driving feel and dynamics better IMHO. Since I tend to lean more toward sport, that is why I rank the Infiniti and RL how I do.
As for fit and finish, I personally just observe more gaps and misalignment panels in the GS than the RL. It could possibly just be a timing issue, but all the RLs I've seen have nearly perfect fit and finish which truthfully have carried over from its Legend days. The 3rd Gen GS just seem to be a bit more hit and miss with all the panel alignment problems and rattles and what not. I'd still buy the GS in a heartbeat, but I'd probably buy something else before the GS. Most likely the G35 or M35.
I guess you could say maybe the RL confuses the driver. The seats are so plush and comfortable you expect a pure luxury ride, but what you get is more of a sporty ride. Not BMW or Infiniti sport, but definitely enough to open your eyes. With the GS, you typically expect the soft comfortable seats, but what you get is slightly harder leather and a firmer seat. Not enough to be a sports seat since it has no real sports support, but it kind of tricks you into thinking Lexus may have upped the sportiness of the GS, but once you drive it you realize it is your typical Lexus. That is not bad at all my any means and many like that, but both the RL and GS are a bit confusing in that way. You'd almost expect the GS seats to be in the RL and the RL seats to be in the GS. It would match each others driving feel and dynamics better IMHO. Since I tend to lean more toward sport, that is why I rank the Infiniti and RL how I do.
As for fit and finish, I personally just observe more gaps and misalignment panels in the GS than the RL. It could possibly just be a timing issue, but all the RLs I've seen have nearly perfect fit and finish which truthfully have carried over from its Legend days. The 3rd Gen GS just seem to be a bit more hit and miss with all the panel alignment problems and rattles and what not. I'd still buy the GS in a heartbeat, but I'd probably buy something else before the GS. Most likely the G35 or M35.
08-13-07, 05:54 PM
#47
The other is the way that some of the interior switches, such as the power-mirror switches, are inside a little pull-down compartment that flips up into the lower dash to the left of the steering wheel. When the box is flipped open to get at the mirror controls, depending on how your legs are shaped and where you rest them, your left knee or thigh often hits the right corner of the box, which can be uncomfortable. I noticed that in my review.
08-13-07, 11:07 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
The problem I see is that every single competing car in the RL's class is over priced. The GS350, the M35/45, the 535. They are all over priced for what you get. Now the question is which over priced car are people willing to buy? This answer has nothing to do with which car is better but mostly to to with the prestige and image status. I will admit most people don't want to say they over paid for an Acura RL, but somehow feel better saying they over paid for their Lexus GS or Mercedes C class. The RL interior is more refined than the Lexus, has IMHO a much better fit and finish than any of its competitors on the market right now. The problem is people don't want to over pay for an Acura, but are more than happy to over pay for everything else out there. The Infiniti M35/45 IMHO is the best over all car in its segment, followed by the RL.
The main reasons the GS outsells the RL is because the last GS was well received and sold well and gained many fans which means alot of repeat buyers where the last RL was a big dissapointment from the previous legend and was not well received nor sold that well which means much fewer repeat buyers or people who liked the previous car. The 3rd gen GS was a update on a home run car where the new RL was trying to erase peoples memory of the last lackluster dissapointing RL. Of course the GS is going to sell much better especially when it can be had for less money and also has more powertrain options. That does not mean the GS is the better car or the RL lacks something. Most reviews of the RL seem to be very positive from the car mags and they would be the first to say it is not worth the money where many on the GS reviews where okay and pretty much mediocre. The fact is the RL is just as nice if not nicer then its competition and hopefully Acura will make the next RL a little larger, more eyecatching, with powertrain options and on a RWD platform. The interior hopefully will be just as nice then maybe more people will buy it.
08-14-07, 07:29 AM
#49
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There are so many wrong things with that answer, there is no point to rebuttle. 
A matter of personal opinion is not a matter of fact. Now sales are slumping with that car but it all goes back to marketing the brand, then marketing the actual product. The ratio between Lexus ads versus Acura ads, the 2 cannot compare.
A matter of personal opinion is not a matter of fact. Now sales are slumping with that car but it all goes back to marketing the brand, then marketing the actual product. The ratio between Lexus ads versus Acura ads, the 2 cannot compare.
Its MORE than marketing. Acura markets the RL, mostly about its real time navigation, not the car itself.
Stop making excuses.
08-14-07, 07:37 AM
#50
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I agree with everything you said, great post. Some people seem to think the RL is overpriced when it costs as much as some of its competition or more then a base GS or M with no options but the RL comes loaded with everthing standard, even a navigation system which is considered the best in the market. It also has the most advanced AWD system available standard which none of its competition has. The interior is just as nice if not better then all its competition. I sat in a 5 series and was shocked how uninspired, plain and cheap it looked and felt for a car costing so much. I can't really understand how some people actually feel the new GS interior is nicer and higher quality then the RL after sitting in the 2 and driving the two aside from brand loyality. The GS interior is nice but feels a bit cheaper then the 2nd Gen and I have never been wowed by the 2nd Gen interior which I own. Headroom was the biggest dissapointment in the new GS to me.
I agree headroom is not great at all.
I feel neither the RL, GS, or M are very good looking cars nor do they really look like 50K luxury cars but they still do have some nice angles. At least the 2nd Gen GS looks like a expensive luxury car where the current one looks more like a Nissan or Toyota model.
Opinion, reviews have said the RL looks like an Accord.
Make no mistake I do like the 3rd Gen GS and thinks its a decent car, just a bit of a dissapointment following the 2nd Gen model.
I agree and think many share this sentiment about the 3GS, its not a home run.
I generally feel pretty much all midsize luxury cars are overpriced for what you get and should have more features standard and nicer interiors and more performance. Most of what they offer can be had in less expensive cars aside from v-8 powertrains, that is not enough to charge so much over entry level luxury cars.
The main reasons the GS outsells the RL is because the last GS was well received and sold well and gained many fans which means alot of repeat buyers where the last RL was a big dissapointment from the previous legend and was not well received nor sold that well which means much fewer repeat buyers or people who liked the previous car.
That is a huge assumption. Let us not forget the 1GS was no sales hit after its first year on the market and the 2GS became a hit. Acura, AGAIN, missed the mark with this car.
The 3rd gen GS was a update on a home run car where the new RL was trying to erase peoples memory of the last lackluster dissapointing RL. Of course the GS is going to sell much better especially when it can be had for less money and also has more powertrain options.
Acura has no idea what the luxury buyer wants. They are the only ones that come to the market with a loaded car. Luxury=choice (even Lexus is still learning that). With the RL you have none. With discounts, this car is CHEAPER than the GS. You can now get a discontented RL.
That does not mean the GS is the better car or the RL lacks something. Most reviews of the RL seem to be very positive from the car mags and they would be the first to say it is not worth the money where many on the GS reviews where okay and pretty much mediocre. The fact is the RL is just as nice if not nicer then its competition and hopefully Acura will make the next RL a little larger, more eyecatching, with powertrain options and on a RWD platform. The interior hopefully will be just as nice then maybe more people will buy it.
I agree, the RL is NOT a bad car, it simply does not offer any advantage outside SH-AWD over its competitors and its not even CHEAPER. Acura's that sell well are cheaper than the competition. When they sell anything over 40k outside the MDX, its sells poorly.
I agree headroom is not great at all.
I feel neither the RL, GS, or M are very good looking cars nor do they really look like 50K luxury cars but they still do have some nice angles. At least the 2nd Gen GS looks like a expensive luxury car where the current one looks more like a Nissan or Toyota model.
Opinion, reviews have said the RL looks like an Accord.
Make no mistake I do like the 3rd Gen GS and thinks its a decent car, just a bit of a dissapointment following the 2nd Gen model.
I agree and think many share this sentiment about the 3GS, its not a home run.
I generally feel pretty much all midsize luxury cars are overpriced for what you get and should have more features standard and nicer interiors and more performance. Most of what they offer can be had in less expensive cars aside from v-8 powertrains, that is not enough to charge so much over entry level luxury cars.
The main reasons the GS outsells the RL is because the last GS was well received and sold well and gained many fans which means alot of repeat buyers where the last RL was a big dissapointment from the previous legend and was not well received nor sold that well which means much fewer repeat buyers or people who liked the previous car.
That is a huge assumption. Let us not forget the 1GS was no sales hit after its first year on the market and the 2GS became a hit. Acura, AGAIN, missed the mark with this car.
The 3rd gen GS was a update on a home run car where the new RL was trying to erase peoples memory of the last lackluster dissapointing RL. Of course the GS is going to sell much better especially when it can be had for less money and also has more powertrain options.
Acura has no idea what the luxury buyer wants. They are the only ones that come to the market with a loaded car. Luxury=choice (even Lexus is still learning that). With the RL you have none. With discounts, this car is CHEAPER than the GS. You can now get a discontented RL.
That does not mean the GS is the better car or the RL lacks something. Most reviews of the RL seem to be very positive from the car mags and they would be the first to say it is not worth the money where many on the GS reviews where okay and pretty much mediocre. The fact is the RL is just as nice if not nicer then its competition and hopefully Acura will make the next RL a little larger, more eyecatching, with powertrain options and on a RWD platform. The interior hopefully will be just as nice then maybe more people will buy it.
I agree, the RL is NOT a bad car, it simply does not offer any advantage outside SH-AWD over its competitors and its not even CHEAPER. Acura's that sell well are cheaper than the competition. When they sell anything over 40k outside the MDX, its sells poorly.
08-14-07, 07:39 AM
#51
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I hate that about the GS. I understand how it keeps the dash free from visible buttons, but the drop down box just gets in the way. I said it many times before, I rather they did it like in the RX330/350. It accomplishes the same thing, but you don't have an entire box handing down from the dash. With the RX way, you can leave the lid open and have access to all the buttons, or you can close the lid for the clean dash look. Either way it is just a lid the slides into the dash so nothing gets in the way of leg room.
Clearly though, Lexus heard the complaints as the 2008 models lose this feature.
Class sales
Sales YDT 2007 Mid-Size Luxury Sedans
1. 5 - Series - 23,807
2. E - Class - 22,246
3. M - 11,701
4. GS - 11,168
5. STS - 9,509
6. S80 - 6,164
7. A6 - 6,014
8. RL - 3,482
9. 9-5 -2,266
Last edited by LexFather; 08-14-07 at 08:02 AM.
08-14-07, 09:08 AM
#52
Racer
I guess its personal preference b/c I love it, I think its genius. Those buttons simply are not used much, get them out my sight.
Clearly though, Lexus heard the complaints as the 2008 models lose this feature.
Class sales
Sales YDT 2007 Mid-Size Luxury Sedans
1. 5 - Series - 23,807
2. E - Class - 22,246
3. M - 11,701
4. GS - 11,168
5. STS - 9,509
6. S80 - 6,164
7. A6 - 6,014
8. RL - 3,482
9. 9-5 -2,266
Clearly though, Lexus heard the complaints as the 2008 models lose this feature.
Class sales
Sales YDT 2007 Mid-Size Luxury Sedans
1. 5 - Series - 23,807
2. E - Class - 22,246
3. M - 11,701
4. GS - 11,168
5. STS - 9,509
6. S80 - 6,164
7. A6 - 6,014
8. RL - 3,482
9. 9-5 -2,266
08-14-07, 11:28 AM
#53
It really is a good car though. My friend started off with a Legend Coupe like me. He then went to a Supra Turbo, then back to an 99 Acura RL, than to a new 02 BMW E39 530i, then to a new 2004 C230, and now went back to a 06 Acura RL.
08-14-07, 11:31 AM
#54
I agree about getting them out of the way, but not a pull down box. You drove the RX. Just make it hidden like the RX. Flip the lid and the buttons are shown. Flip the lid back down and it cleans up the dash. Same results only you don't have a box hanging down blocking your legs. It will take up the same about of back space in the dash.
Last edited by CK6Speed; 08-14-07 at 11:40 AM.
08-14-07, 11:33 AM
#55
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Actually I haven't really seen an RL commercial in a long time. I work in TV so I see all the new national and local ads, and have seen many new Acura ads. Most of them are not of the RL at all. The real time nav is in the RDX which is a hot seller right now so that pretty much gets most of the spot light. Not saying that it is a lack of advertising, but since there has been no real update for the RL in an attempt to boost sales why bother? I figure once it goes through its midlife update like more power, slight body update or something maybe Acura will give it some ad time again.
It really is a good car though. My friend started off with a Legend Coupe like me. He then went to a Supra Turbo, then back to an 99 Acura RL, than to a new 02 BMW E39 530i, then to a new 2004 C230, and now went back to a 06 Acura RL.
It really is a good car though. My friend started off with a Legend Coupe like me. He then went to a Supra Turbo, then back to an 99 Acura RL, than to a new 02 BMW E39 530i, then to a new 2004 C230, and now went back to a 06 Acura RL.
You are correct, the RL debuted 3 months before the M35/45 and GS and the M35/45 and GS will be updated this fall while the RL has not been updated yet.
On top of that, the GS got new engines as the 5 and E class.
Again, its not a bad car at all but in this class and with anonymous styling, its a challenge.
08-15-07, 11:04 AM
#56
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Now sales are slumping? Sales dropped 50% after the first year and drops another 50% each year. IN comparison, M35/45 and GS sales are down about 25% and E/5 sales are just as strong as ever.
Its MORE than marketing. Acura markets the RL, mostly about its real time navigation, not the car itself.
Stop making excuses.
Its MORE than marketing. Acura markets the RL, mostly about its real time navigation, not the car itself.
Stop making excuses.
Here are some numbers....
Acura RL VS. ES350
July 2006 1272 Units for Acura
July 2006 7803 Units for Lexus
July 2007 558 Units for Acura
July 2007 6909 Units for Lexus
Overall Totals for July 2006 and 2007
18,203 in July 2006 for Acura
16,157 in July 2006 for Lexus
14,381 in July 2007 for Acura
16,755 in July 2007 for Lexus
Now this is all based on marketing rebates, incentives, etc. Toyota offered for its customers versus Honda not really have any of those things for its Acura lineup, and that hurt American Honda, no doubt about that. So marketing plays a HUGE factor on sales! Just look at the 2006 sales figures, there is a huge difference between the ES350 and the RL. It is almost as if Honda is covertly selling the RL. I see a lot of people here comparing the Infiniti M to the RL, and I must say they that with advertisement Nissan only sold 1,674 M's in July of this year, not to mention that the car has terrible reviews. I see no comparision between the 2 cars at all, been in both, driven both, and the RL is a dream compared to the M. When you look deep into it, all of these cars are not worth the money initially because of their initial depreciation.
08-15-07, 12:42 PM
#57
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No excuses, why would I bother making excuses for Honda? I get nothing out of it...hahaha They stopped making those ads about real time navi almost 3 years ago, not to mention they offer the same thing in the TL now, so hows about talking about present day?
Here are some numbers....
Acura RL VS. ES350
July 2006 1272 Units for Acura
July 2006 7803 Units for Lexus
July 2007 558 Units for Acura
July 2007 6909 Units for Lexus
Overall Totals for July 2006 and 2007
18,203 in July 2006 for Acura
16,157 in July 2006 for Lexus
14,381 in July 2007 for Acura
16,755 in July 2007 for Lexus
Now this is all based on marketing rebates, incentives, etc. Toyota offered for its customers versus Honda not really have any of those things for its Acura lineup, and that hurt American Honda, no doubt about that. So marketing plays a HUGE factor on sales! Just look at the 2006 sales figures, there is a huge difference between the ES350 and the RL. It is almost as if Honda is covertly selling the RL. I see a lot of people here comparing the Infiniti M to the RL, and I must say they that with advertisement Nissan only sold 1,674 M's in July of this year, not to mention that the car has terrible reviews. I see no comparision between the 2 cars at all, been in both, driven both, and the RL is a dream compared to the M. When you look deep into it, all of these cars are not worth the money initially because of their initial depreciation.
Here are some numbers....
Acura RL VS. ES350
July 2006 1272 Units for Acura
July 2006 7803 Units for Lexus
July 2007 558 Units for Acura
July 2007 6909 Units for Lexus
Overall Totals for July 2006 and 2007
18,203 in July 2006 for Acura
16,157 in July 2006 for Lexus
14,381 in July 2007 for Acura
16,755 in July 2007 for Lexus
Now this is all based on marketing rebates, incentives, etc. Toyota offered for its customers versus Honda not really have any of those things for its Acura lineup, and that hurt American Honda, no doubt about that. So marketing plays a HUGE factor on sales! Just look at the 2006 sales figures, there is a huge difference between the ES350 and the RL. It is almost as if Honda is covertly selling the RL. I see a lot of people here comparing the Infiniti M to the RL, and I must say they that with advertisement Nissan only sold 1,674 M's in July of this year, not to mention that the car has terrible reviews. I see no comparision between the 2 cars at all, been in both, driven both, and the RL is a dream compared to the M. When you look deep into it, all of these cars are not worth the money initially because of their initial depreciation.
08-15-07, 12:45 PM
#58
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Ive been reading more and more of people considering Acura "near luxury". I agree with them. They have yet to wow me and their cars dont offer all that more than you would find in a Subaru, or the emerging Pontiac or Buicks. I hold MB, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti in higher regard than Acura. They have been around longer than Infiniti and Lexus and yet that haven't done anything all that exciting since the NSX. The first RL and TLs were completely bland. The TSX needs a turbo or a 6 cylinder or something. The RL needs a V8. The RSX just needs to be blended into a 2 door TSX. The only one that is really on par is the TL and its sales reflect that.
08-16-07, 06:36 AM
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Sure the RL isn't a bad car, but I could spend the same cash on a 5 series, get more power, and a 6MT, 4 years scheduled maintence, etc. Its a better deal.
Ive been reading more and more of people considering Acura "near luxury". I agree with them. They have yet to wow me and their cars dont offer all that more than you would find in a Subaru, or the emerging Pontiac or Buicks. I hold MB, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti in higher regard than Acura. They have been around longer than Infiniti and Lexus and yet that haven't done anything all that exciting since the NSX. The first RL and TLs were completely bland. The TSX needs a turbo or a 6 cylinder or something. The RL needs a V8. The RSX just needs to be blended into a 2 door TSX. The only one that is really on par is the TL and its sales reflect that.
Ive been reading more and more of people considering Acura "near luxury". I agree with them. They have yet to wow me and their cars dont offer all that more than you would find in a Subaru, or the emerging Pontiac or Buicks. I hold MB, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti in higher regard than Acura. They have been around longer than Infiniti and Lexus and yet that haven't done anything all that exciting since the NSX. The first RL and TLs were completely bland. The TSX needs a turbo or a 6 cylinder or something. The RL needs a V8. The RSX just needs to be blended into a 2 door TSX. The only one that is really on par is the TL and its sales reflect that.
08-16-07, 09:27 AM
#60
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Total as in total Lexus sales versus Acura sales for 1 month that being July, and comparing 2 years being 2006 and 2007. The figures came from the automakers themselves via the internet. BTW, I never said the ES350 came with any incentives, etc. I said Lexus offers incentives Honda does not for its Acura line.
From this thread: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=297721
TOTAL Lexus sales for July 2007 were 27,141 while TOTAL Acura sales for July 2007 were 14,381. Looking at your figures, you compared Lexus car sales to TOTAL Acura sales. Completely unfair comparison. If you were trying to show that Acura can match Lexus sales, it's a losing argument.
And again you're incorrect about Lexus versus Acura incentives. Lexus has some of the lowest incentives in the industry, lower than Acura. Acura has a no-charge navigation upgrade incentive currently going on for it's TL. Lexus does not offer anything like that, even for it's older models.