Threxx

We are speaking strictly of the concept of touch screen mounted low vs joystick interface with high mount screen.

Getting into the subjective pros and cons of each manufacturer's interface muddies up the conceptual discussion too much, but yes, I've definitely heard far more complaints than praise of the logical layout of the BMW nav system. I don't think that's a complaint against the joystick interface as much as it is against the software itself.

STIG

I am not trying to defend Lexus Touch screen since I don't have navigation in my IS350.

But I have I-drive navigation in E70 X5.
Are you saying you don't have to take your eyes off the road when you are dialing that ****? I don't know how you do it, but I always have to go complete stop if I want to enter the address entry, or change something.

STIG

Speaking of software, I stupidly opt out for the heads up display on the X5. I think that would be a pretty awesome feature, and you don't have to take your eyes off the road when you are reading the directions.

Forget it, I want my next car with good old Thomas Bros. map behind my driver seat.

doug_999

Come on Mike.... you know there is a lot more to it than that. I'd hate for a pilot to see you say that - I've been in a 747-400 sim at UAL and these guys do work - especially when there is an emergency. Speaking of which, if you lose an engine or worse a fan blade(especially on something like a 777), there is no way you will be able to accurately get your finger on a touch screen and position it correctly. This is my big issue with touch screens - I have to really focus on where I am pressing and this takes my eyes off the road.


Strange. I can basically program it while driving - quick glance at it tells me how many turns I need to get somewhere and with the tactical feedback, I can turn that number of turns, push and then move on. It is especially nice when I want to go somewhere that is stored in the address book (like home) - no need to pull over. Just go to Nav, Click Address book, scroll down two and press. Once again as others have said, maybe it is just certain people? I do know that I just don't see owners complaining about I-Drive. Yes, there are some, but the majority are just fine with it. Now if they could just speed it up.....


PS - My wife's 2006 MDX has touch screen and yet she has never used it - she always uses the voice instructions - it is one of the most amazing things I have seen. I realize BMW and Lexus both have this, but I've never seen speach recognition like hers.

cal_alum98

I'll venture a guess as to why you don't see them in fighter and attack aircraft based on my experience in the cockpit of a S-3B: You don't want to remove your hands from the controls to press the screen with a possibly bulky gloved finger while under high G load? The controls (throttles and control stick) already have buttons on them to access critical functions such as switching targeting/nav modes, using the radio, and deploying countermeasures.

Of course, you still see plenty of buttons in the cockpit and no separate control **** or stick. Spend time in the cockpit long enough and you memorize the location and position of switches and buttons. You're not going to be typing in addresses for your next waypoint either. For multi-seat aircraft, a co-pilot, WSO, or RIO can take care of other navigation and flight systems.

AzNMpower

I don't.. On my 335i coupe test drive, I was driving and fiddling with turn-signal settings and climate control while driving along and found it intuitive. That vehicle didn't have the 3-blink lane change signal activated, so I just scrolled around and turned the feature on. Then I didn't like how the climate control was blowing madly into my face, so I dialed that down too. All while driving on a local road, in a car I had never driven before.

I guess different people have different logic.

STIG

Are you saying that I am stupid?

I was talking about navigation entry? like putting numbers and address in, and looking for POI etc.


But you are quite right when it comes to vehicle settings on BMW. They will let you do custom settings however you want. For example, turning the DRL on/off is a breeze. With Lexus, you have to go to 20 different dealers to just to disable DRLs. I love that feature about BMW. But I can't seem to turn off the seat belt chime. Anybody knows? ( I admit, I haven't read the manual )

doug_999

You have to put your seatbelt on and it will stop

Jeez STIG, I can't believe you didn't know this, no wonder why you have problems with I-Drive.... j/k

Threxx

Well since the question of touch screens in commercial airliners came up and I promised I'd get a response from my dad who's been a pilot all his life... here's his unedited response

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Before getting into brands, let's talk generically:

Touch screens are great in many ways, but aren't perfect.
Benefits include packaging efficiency (no space needed for separate controls) and sometimes more 'intuitive' operation because no 'pointer' is needed - the finger is the pointer. It generally takes less training than other systems.
Drawbacks include fingerprints, no tactile feedback about WHERE to press (so you have to look, vs. a button with detents or 'bumps' on them which can be found without looking), and requiring control and display in the same place is not always ideal.

Note: Most ATMs are not touch screen for example. And most critical control systems are not touch screen even though they could be. iPods and blackberries, both paragons of ergonomic efficiency, seem to do great without a touch screen.

'Controller' systems can be great too, but aren't perfect either.
Whether they're a mouse, a ****, a dial, or buttons, they are generally not as easy to use initially because they require a learned 'coordination' between what the hand does with the controller and what's happening on the screen so in that sense they're a bit more abstract and take a bit more getting used to. But once learned, the operation can often be faster than a touch screen because the controller is operated by learned 'gestures' vs. having to look where to poke the screen (a one size fits all mechanism).

Once learned though, either system can be fast and effective IF IMPLEMENTED WELL.

Lexus did a great job generally with the touch screen (AND BUTTONS) but they crippled the nav and other functions by being overly paranoid about lawsuits and locking out so much functionality.

BMW on the other hand may have had a good concept, but the implementation was AWFUL. SLOW operation, poorly organized menus, they obviously gave little time for real usability testing by other than 'true believers'.

MB and Audi haven't had quite so much criticism, and MB's latest S class is apparently quite good.

So none of them are perfect.

Jeremy Clarkson, not a fan of 'gizmos', said during his review of the S class on Top Gear though that he was glad he didn't have to use them because the voice recognition was so good.

BMW's voice recognition is apparently very good too, as is Acura's, where Lexus seems to be somewhat behind from what I've read.

So this is all an evolving area. But round 1 goes to Lexus and Acura.

AzNMpower

I'm not implying it takes higher intelligence to operate one or another, nor that someone is dumb or smart based on what they can use. I'll tell you right now that I'm like, touchscreen-impaired. I've tried Lexus and Acura systems and cannot work them intuitively. I can't really do Audi's MMI either.........I crashed the system at an auto show. . I haven't tried to input destination on iDrive, although I think I have brought up a map before. I have mostly dealt with audio, climate, vehicle info and settings with iDrive during my brief stints at the auto show and test drives.

I don't think you can turn off the seat belt chime unless you go to the dealer and BEG that they disable it. We have this feature on the 325i sport and I find it annoying. Thankfully, our '04 X3 doesn't do this at all

Threxx

So if this site is correct:
http://community.myride.com/kickapps...LOG&as=3898&b=

The new RX will have a screen set up and back into the dash like BMW, and will likely no longer be touch screen, but use a console-based interface such as a touch pad or scroll wheel.

I wonder if some of the hardcore Lexus fans that have already expressed their preference for Lexus nav systems will suddenly change their opinion on the merits and validity of a console-based interface?

Nextourer

touchpad is slightly different from a scroller, no? Cause i-Drive/MMI/COMAND use a scroller to move in 8 compass direction. A touchpad is like a mouse.

jp82729

I have tried the rotary **** controllers for most manufactirers, so I thought I would chime in with my opinions:

Benz COMMAND - I think the new version of COMMAND is the currently the best rotary **** based system out right now. The main advantage is that it gives some haptic feedback as you turn the ****. The screen flow and design is sometimes a bit confusing, but it is clean and easy to look at.

BMW iDrive - The controller itself is simple enough to use. Like others in the thread have said, it is the screen flow that makes it difficult to use. BMW tried to cram too many functions into the screen. It makes for a nice clean buttonless interior, but the ease of use suffers.

Acura - The Acura controller is a little goofy at first (like an oversized joystick), but it is OK for me. Acura's screen flow is probably the easiest to use, though, so it makes up for any difiiculty with the controller. I would say Acura is the opposite of BMW, though, as their instrument panel has too many buttons on it!

Infiniti - I like that Infiniti has dual input (rotary **** or touchscreen). I have tried out their system in the new G. The controller itself is not as nice as the BMW or Benz, it is a little too short to get a good grip on it. And I'm not sure why they did't put the controller down lower so it could be used without reaching. It seems kind of silly to put the controller right next to the touch screen.

Audi MMI - The Audi MMI controller is a little on the small size for me. Audi's concept reminds me of BMW, except that they use hard keys on the console for accessing the main functions (which is nice).

TLe2006

on a touch screen navi, if you memorized where all the buttons on the screen are then you'll barely take your eyes off the roads.