Toyota/Subaru/Scion Lightweight Sports Car: Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ, Scion FRS!
(Maybe... lol)
11-28-11, 07:39 PM
#1623
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MODIFIED TOYOTA 86
Sitting in the pits at the 86 test drive on Sunday was this lightly tuned version of the car for the press to check out. Sitting on 18-inch BBS wheels it was also wearing a subtle but effective aero package. Up front there are lower bumper add ons at each corner with an air guide around the center opening and a very thin lip spoiler. The car was a left hand drive model, probably European market as it was fitted with the obligatory headlight washers.
Curiously the suspension looked stock, at least the height. The 18-inch BBS wheels were wrapped in brand new Bridgestone RE86 (86...do you get it?) tires. The car I drove was on Michelins so not sure if these will be a performance option or not. We will just have to wait and see when more details are released. Despite the step up to 18-inch wheels the tire width was the same 215 mm as the stock 17s.
The interior was spiced up with carbon trim and a set of TRD gauges mounted where the audio/navigation would usually be fitted. This is a very small initial glimpse into the tuning side of the 86.
Curiously the suspension looked stock, at least the height. The 18-inch BBS wheels were wrapped in brand new Bridgestone RE86 (86...do you get it?) tires. The car I drove was on Michelins so not sure if these will be a performance option or not. We will just have to wait and see when more details are released. Despite the step up to 18-inch wheels the tire width was the same 215 mm as the stock 17s.
The interior was spiced up with carbon trim and a set of TRD gauges mounted where the audio/navigation would usually be fitted. This is a very small initial glimpse into the tuning side of the 86.
11-29-11, 05:11 AM
#1627
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a miata is a competitor. and rumor on the next gen is under 1800lbs and a turbo engine option! 
http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-ne...cle-93847.html
http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-ne...cle-93847.html
Since you cite me as a "cynic" and "critic" since i haven't drunk too much Toyota koolaid on this car, i'll go into detail my reservations (again).
1. Weight: 2600-2800 lbs seems a tad high and definitely not "mind-blowing curb weight". Pulling off 2000 lbs is mind numbing, 2200 is damn crazy, and 2400 would have been perfect. Toyco shaved off 200lbs off the new Camry, one would of hoped that they could of achieved something similar to lessen the curb weight. Will wait to see the final specs, since U.S. has different standards for bumper / crash protection.
2. Car hp output: I would of liked to see a small displacement i4 turbo instead, which would give good hp, good fuel economy, and also modibility. Even a high-revving i4 would of been nice to save weight and keep the car in its peak hp band at speed, but i understand why they chose a H4 due to lower center of gravity. Low end torque with the h4 should be nice, but i've never been a fan of boxers (must be the old Evo owner in me). Again, awaiting final judgement after US spec is introduced since we can go down to 87 octane here unlike other parts of the world. It will also be interesting to see the final fuel economy numbers.
In summary, Instead of going all out and "awakening" the dragon, Toyco seems to have compromised a bit for the "practical" side for costs, insurance, etc.. I'm not the type of guy that likes compromises (i chose an Evo RS before over the MR and GSR not because it was cheaper but because it was "raw" and unadulterated in nature ready and was an "scca" ready pure sports car. One can only hope that Toyco/Subby does the same and introduce a stripper model aimed for guys like me or better yet a hi-po trd/sti packaged version! I still like the car because in its stock form, it seems comparable in performance to the older Sylvia S14 which is saying a lot because i used to consider importer that car here. While I have no doubt people will buy this car, I would say Toyota did a good job and hit a double instead of a triple or homer on it. I'm saying this from a biased, yet objective view based on a guy who's owned quite a few sports car and not just some marketing fanboi, so YMMV. Of course, I will reserve my final judgement when i drive it first hand. /flamesuit on
1. Weight: 2600-2800 lbs seems a tad high and definitely not "mind-blowing curb weight". Pulling off 2000 lbs is mind numbing, 2200 is damn crazy, and 2400 would have been perfect. Toyco shaved off 200lbs off the new Camry, one would of hoped that they could of achieved something similar to lessen the curb weight. Will wait to see the final specs, since U.S. has different standards for bumper / crash protection.
2. Car hp output: I would of liked to see a small displacement i4 turbo instead, which would give good hp, good fuel economy, and also modibility. Even a high-revving i4 would of been nice to save weight and keep the car in its peak hp band at speed, but i understand why they chose a H4 due to lower center of gravity. Low end torque with the h4 should be nice, but i've never been a fan of boxers (must be the old Evo owner in me). Again, awaiting final judgement after US spec is introduced since we can go down to 87 octane here unlike other parts of the world. It will also be interesting to see the final fuel economy numbers.
In summary, Instead of going all out and "awakening" the dragon, Toyco seems to have compromised a bit for the "practical" side for costs, insurance, etc.. I'm not the type of guy that likes compromises (i chose an Evo RS before over the MR and GSR not because it was cheaper but because it was "raw" and unadulterated in nature ready and was an "scca" ready pure sports car. One can only hope that Toyco/Subby does the same and introduce a stripper model aimed for guys like me or better yet a hi-po trd/sti packaged version! I still like the car because in its stock form, it seems comparable in performance to the older Sylvia S14 which is saying a lot because i used to consider importer that car here. While I have no doubt people will buy this car, I would say Toyota did a good job and hit a double instead of a triple or homer on it. I'm saying this from a biased, yet objective view based on a guy who's owned quite a few sports car and not just some marketing fanboi, so YMMV. Of course, I will reserve my final judgement when i drive it first hand. /flamesuit on
Regardless of being focused toward enthusiast, you do realize the car has to sell in a reasonable numbers right? Especially if you would eventually like to see something that meets your type of expectations. Proposing something for the 30k market where the 370Z, Mustang GT, Genesis V8 etc etc etc already exist and fight for market share would be starting on a back foot. Something like a Supra is going to cost upward of $60k, probably even approaching GT-R price levels.
The already have the LFA in the stratosphere, and this will cover the basement. There is a lot of space to fill in the middle, and from all perspectives, this point is the best to start.
Your are quick to call out the proponents of this car and play the "fanboi" card, maybe you need to chill and look who and where this car was aimed. They are not delivering anything that they didn't promise.
Last edited by MR_F1; 11-29-11 at 05:17 AM.
11-29-11, 05:43 AM
#1628
The all aluminum chassis, hand built Elise has trouble making 1800lbs these days with a 95kg all aluminum engine... I'm not buying a word of that till i see it. 2200lbs, at best.
Regardless of being focused toward enthusiast, you do realize the car has to sell in a reasonable numbers right? Especially if you would eventually like to see something that meets your type of expectations. Proposing something for the 30k market where the 370Z, Mustang GT, Genesis V8 etc etc etc already exist and fight for market share would be starting on a back foot. Something like a Supra is going to cost upward of $60k, probably even approaching GT-R price levels.
The already have the LFA in the stratosphere, and this will cover the basement. There is a lot of space to fill in the middle, and from all perspectives, this point is the best to start.
Your are quick to call out the proponents of this car and play the "fanboi" card, maybe you need to chill and look who and where this car was aimed. They are not delivering anything that they didn't promise.
Regardless of being focused toward enthusiast, you do realize the car has to sell in a reasonable numbers right? Especially if you would eventually like to see something that meets your type of expectations. Proposing something for the 30k market where the 370Z, Mustang GT, Genesis V8 etc etc etc already exist and fight for market share would be starting on a back foot. Something like a Supra is going to cost upward of $60k, probably even approaching GT-R price levels.
The already have the LFA in the stratosphere, and this will cover the basement. There is a lot of space to fill in the middle, and from all perspectives, this point is the best to start.
Your are quick to call out the proponents of this car and play the "fanboi" card, maybe you need to chill and look who and where this car was aimed. They are not delivering anything that they didn't promise.
The refinements in the engine is pretty significant, to allow for more optimum characters desired for this car in naturally aspirated form. The D4-S direct injection allows for a high 12.5:1 compression rate with normal gas engine, providing a cracking response of the throttle and modest but linear and predictable torque curve, both in numerical and tactile senses, and with pretty cool fuel efficiency too.
Subaru horizontally opposed four idea was just something they decided to use for the sake of what is best suited in the constraints of the product price point and resources, and possibly, the most developed technology base, Toyota had in 2.0L class engine, concurrently with the recent acquisition of Subaru shares. And besides, there are great merits to the flat four, if noise attributes in the past wasn't one of them. Toyota's internal Yamaha design team has done a great job of acoustic tuning though, and this one sounds sportier and soulful than ever for a flat four. There have been extensive tweaking on this verson of the FB that there is a new designation FA, and things drastic as crankshaft was even recast to enhance for its application in this car. A Toyota name also will be atteched to Scion/Toyota version's engine as well, which I cannot reveal at this point.
A brand new engine from scratch would have cost a lot more.
The engine placement was carefully considered and while they could have pushed the engine back and down a bit further, there is a purposeful room left but not going all the way. This is so as to be able to mount the existing Impreza's Subaru FB and even EJ turbo engine later if product planners later decided to take that direction.
However, dropping and pushing the engine far enough to the point where existing AWD Subaru parts can "not" fit shows that this product is also very goal oriented and focused for RWD driving pleasures.
The USA premier is this week, and we'll know more in the coming weeks.
Last edited by motohide; 11-29-11 at 05:50 AM.
11-29-11, 07:54 AM
#1629
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11-29-11, 11:29 AM
#1630
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Regardless of being focused toward enthusiast, you do realize the car has to sell in a reasonable numbers right? Especially if you would eventually like to see something that meets your type of expectations. Proposing something for the 30k market where the 370Z, Mustang GT, Genesis V8 etc etc etc already exist and fight for market share would be starting on a back foot. Something like a Supra is going to cost upward of $60k, probably even approaching GT-R price levels.
The already have the LFA in the stratosphere, and this will cover the basement. There is a lot of space to fill in the middle, and from all perspectives, this point is the best to start.
Your are quick to call out the proponents of this car and play the "fanboi" card, maybe you need to chill and look who and where this car was aimed. They are not delivering anything that they didn't promise.
The already have the LFA in the stratosphere, and this will cover the basement. There is a lot of space to fill in the middle, and from all perspectives, this point is the best to start.
Your are quick to call out the proponents of this car and play the "fanboi" card, maybe you need to chill and look who and where this car was aimed. They are not delivering anything that they didn't promise.
Last edited by ST430; 11-29-11 at 01:22 PM.
11-29-11, 12:14 PM
#1632
Why do i have to keep repeating myself and continue hearing defense of this supposed "dragon awakening" car? I've continued to repeat that as is, it is not a car targeted for my demographic. There is not need to continue to defend this halo "pure sports car" and saying that i am playing the fanboi card (it is pretty readily apparent when you have folks proclaiming it "mind numbing" and such). I am an engineer as a professional. I don't do sales. If the merits of the car are as good as you say, then there is no need to further defend it poignantly told you where i base my criticism on it as. To date, the only counterargument is on practicality and fiscal sense.....that speaks to compromises, and again I'll repeat, i'm a no compromise guy...so take my assessment with a grain of salt and don't be so sensitive.
This car is 700lbs lighter than Hyundai Genesis Coupe.
You can easily add an turbo to it.
If you are not willing to modify the car then you are certainly not an no-compromise guy, and this car is not for you.
Unfortunately, I am now told old for this car and my priorities are different. But if this was 7 years ago, I would easily picked this up over my MR-S. Point for point, this seems like a lot better car. I would have turboed it like I did with my MR-S and it would go like crazy.
11-29-11, 12:21 PM
#1633
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Why do i have to keep repeating myself and continue hearing defense of this supposed "dragon awakening" car? I've continued to repeat that as is, it is not a car targeted for my demographic. There is not need to continue to defend this halo "pure sports car" and saying that i am playing the fanboi card (it is pretty readily apparent when you have folks proclaiming it "mind numbing" and such). I am an engineer as a professional. I don't do sales. If the merits of the car are as good as you say, then there is no need to further defend it poignantly told you where i base my criticism on it as. To date, the only counterargument is on practicality and fiscal sense.....that speaks to compromises, and again I'll repeat, i'm a no compromise guy...so take my assessment with a grain of salt and don't be so sensitive.
Last edited by ydooby; 11-29-11 at 01:43 PM.
11-29-11, 01:11 PM
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