ndk83

chris harris is awesome, i love his reviews

spwolf

thats excellent mpg... D4S working its magic.

GS69

Toyota/Subaru Chase Rough Idle Problem for Sporty Coupes

Toyota and Subaru are grappling with reports of rough idle and stalling conditions on their new sporty coupes.

The problems on initial batches of the Subaru BRZ coupe and its Scion FR-S twin -- known as the Toyota FT-86 outside the U.S. -- is being caused by a software mapping glitch.

Toyota Motor Corp. and Subaru, a unit of Fuji Heavy Industries, developed the sporty cars jointly. And except for some badging and front fascia differences, they are basically clones.

Toyota and Subaru officials say the problem is simply a software bug and that there is no mechanical defect.

But some owners of the coupes disagree, saying the suggested fix hasn’t kept the problem from recurring.

Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said that when the engine control unit (ECU) is installed, it adapts to the car's powertrain and owner's driving patterns, a process known as adaptive learning. Within 100 miles, those settings are basically frozen in the ECU.

With the Toyota and Subaru coupes, some of the software coding that allows the ECU to establish a "handshake" with the engine is in error. The ECU monitors certain driving conditions, and when the engine is found to be out of tolerance, the software picks up an anomaly.

When this happens, the ECU fires off a fault code. As the ECU tries to find an optimal driving condition outside its prescribed tolerances, a rough idle or stalling situation ensues. Typically, the check engine light illuminates, and a fault code of P0019 shows up on diagnostic readers.

Toyota's fix: If the car has less than 100 miles on it, a technician will reflash the ECU with the correct software mapping. If the car has more than 100 miles, the mechanic should replace the ECU.

"It does involve the variable valve timing, but it does not involve a mechanical repair," Lyons said. He said the rough idle is the result of the ECU's attempting to work around its detection of the anomaly, rather than what is triggering the fault code. The reflash "broadens the tolerance of detection."

Subaru's explanation

Intriguingly, while Subaru agrees that ECU mapping is the cause, the automaker believes an ECU reflash is the only necessary repair.

"This is not a mileage-dependent condition. No replacement of the ECU is needed at any mileage to rectify the issue. The ECU re-flash is the fix. There is not a defect concerning the ECU," said Subaru spokesman Dominick Infante.

Toyota's ECU programming is being handled by field technical specialists, rather than dealership service techs, resulting in longer-than-normal repair waits for customers, Lyons said. "Our field offices are coordinating the remedies."

Lyons said all cars that have arrived at a dealership since mid-August should already be reflashed with the correct ECU software mapping. And not every car built before then will have the handshake issue, because "it's a combination of parts, tolerances and interactions between the car and ECU" that can trigger the fault.

Angry customers

As performance coupes, these cars are attracting coveted enthusiast buyers and brand evangelists. But their vocal owners have not been pleased to see their vehicles underperform.

"Mine's on the 3rd week in the shop. Parts are on back-order," a FR-S owner in Washington state known as "Alrashwa" wrote on the FT86club.com Web site. "VVTi cam gear and oil control valve are what they claimed to be replacing. Waiting on gaskets which are on back-order, apparently."

Others on the forum say they have had replacements performed of the camshaft bearing, cam gears, actuators and cam position sensors.

Subaru's Infante called the condition "extremely rare." However, the FT86club had more than 100 registered complaints. What's more, several members who have had the ECU reflashed or replaced said the fix didn't stop the problem from recurring, resulting in other engine fault codes and additional service lane visits.

Toyota and Subaru officials declined to say how many cars could be affected or how many complaints have been filed.

RX469

iTrader: (1)

For the longest time I keep on checking for updates to this thread, but I wasn't expecting this last post

CleanSC

It's a brand new chassis built by two separate companies. It's bound to have some issues.

And the early adopters shouldn't really be complaining. Being an early adopter entails exactly these kinds of things. They are the guinea pigs; it comes with the territory.

spwolf

Well, it is a Subaru, not a Toyota... but people should never expect issues aynway.

But I do find it funny how people on ft86 board (it all comes from there), think this is something that can be solved as fast as someone can reply on facebook page.

There are people trying to present them as authority on whats going on ("big cover up, not actual issue"), and they say things like: "is it easier to replace the complete car than just engine" (plus they dont understand that the "engine" is never replaced, only parts needed), which means they have no idea about what they are talking about, they are just googling around :-).

It seems that ecu reflash fixed most of people's issues, there are 4-5 people left but it could be whatever.

CleanSC

A Subaru with Toyota fuel injection. So it's surely a joint effort which can induce more issues.

What if Microsoft and apple came together to make the Windows Iphone 6? And went it acts up on release, should everyone be mad? Apple products designed solely in-house are issue prone on release, so a new product by 2 companies has more places for error.

They shouldn't *expect* issues with a brand new design, but they shouldn't be angry about it if it happens either. It's a fact of life.

We share a lot of information these days and very quickly. People always hop online and complain about their new iphones and cars because they aren't perfect. These things happen.

Especially with hot new products like these.

Either way, reflashes and ECU swaps happen all the time. Across all car makes. It's just that nobody cares if a Chevy Aveo has a TSB on an ECU reflash.

spwolf

i would guess a lot of these people have it as their first car, or first new car and new internet generation doesnt really understand how real world works. All the work that needs to be done to troubleshoot, replicate and engineer an solution....

There is no difference between Apple and Subaru - Subaru is using D4S just as Apple is using Samsung screen, Sony camera, hitachi flash, etc, etc.

It is definetly an issue with Subaru not testing well enough. Just like any other issue.

But as I said before, they expect someone to solve the issue in a day, and thats not possible. Or they expect to get brand new car since "thats easier for Subaru than changing an engine", who do they think puts the engine into the car, magic? That was so out of touch with reality :-).

TRDFantasy

Yeah this is definitely not big news; initial batches of almost any car are bound to have problems.

It's also significant that dealer techs aren't the ones doing most of the work here, but field technical specialists. Toyota should be commended for sending more specialized people to deal with this issue. Not relying on dealer techs shows that Toyota is serious about solving this.

It seems the intended fix has worked for the majority, and now there is only a tiny vocal minority.

Perfectly agree. You just basically described most of the internet and the young generation in one sentence . I don't want to go off-topic here, but personally I do feel this young generation that has grown up with the internet is quite detached from reality and the real world, but back to the FR-S...

spwolf

most def... i just saw video of an guy being called out by another and he proceeds to beat him down and tell him: "who are you calling ***? This is not internet son, you get beat up" :-).

It is very applicable here, people dont realize how complex everything is.

nuggets

I had a chance to test drive one of these cars the scion fr-s at least. I am not gonna lie it does what its built to do and they didnt lie in advertising. it was an outstanding car just really slow. however the first thing i noticed was how noisy it was there was rattling coming from everywhere and when ever you shifted there was a huge clunk especially in the lower gears. Also after reading on the forums that there were problems with the HPFP running ethanol. and just small various problems.. like the scion's radio... i am not trying to knock a great car for a build but its the truth. in the end i chose my lexus is250..

bruce van

I was just at a local Subaru dealership getting an oil change and saw a BRZ in the showroom. Good looking car.

They had a $5000 markup. What was an affordable sportscar now has an asking price of $32K.

Congrats to Subaru and Toyota for building a car that is the new hot ticket in town.

LexFather

Going to try it out again..... after seeing them modded now it helps the WANT.... fun and cheap instead of big, luxury, heavy....

fawk....

LexFather

So you can't find BRZ's...FRS is more ample with the automatic...but I really like the features in the BRZ...but prefer the looks of the FRS..... Could swap things out I guess.. Love this guys

baddis es

iTrader: (3)

That's Rav's BRZ on Work Emotions...one of the best out there, with a perfect fitting wheel...18's are the way to go! His shop has a lot of mod-parts available for both the BRZ/FRS

Supposedly he's painted the wheels to match the pearl color of the BRZ


next year should knock out the little quirks people are having with the car, as someone said prior...being the guinea pig brings you that "testing" territory, so you can't complain too much IMO. i would never purchase a new car in it's first year for that very reason, plus I like to see the mod-capabilites as they grow to the market too


Parts are pretty much interchangable but the easiest route is to go from a Limited BRZ vehicle to a FRS/86 front end swap. You'll have all the LED options and what not on the BRZ, plus the added amenities offered on the BRZ like leather and navi

Looks like you're building quite the list ahead of you Mike...LFCC, GSF, BRZ...tell Vossen you need a raise! (and more 18/19" wheel options too)