Some of you guys sound a bit like Toyota/Lexus fanboys.

The available evidence is that Lexus finds it a challenge for its hybrid technology to work well with heavy vehicles. Its heaviest attempt to date has been the LS. The LS460L weighs in at 4332 lb, whereas the Yukon (RWD, 5.3 liter conventional ICE) is 5273 lb. Yet GMC has been able to achieve a much better mpg gain with the heavier Yukon than Lexus has with the lighter LS. Going from a RWD LS460L to the AWD LS600hL gets you a 11% combined 2008 EPA mpg increase. With the Yukon, again going from RWD ICE to AWD hybrid, you get a 25% increase.

Tell me that isn't impressive.

Then look at it another way. Combined MPG of the RWD Yukon hybrid (21.5) slightly EXCEEDS that of the AWD LS600hL (21), despite the RWD Yukon weighing in at 10% more than the LS600, and having all the aerodynamics of an SUV. (Comparing AWD to AWD, the Yukon is at 20 vs 21mpg for the LS600, but the vehicle weighs 15% more than the LS600, and still suffers from the aerodynamics of an SUV.)

Again, tell me that isn't impressive. Tell me how HSD on a heavy vehicle is somehow "better" than or even "as good as" what GMC has done.

Combine that with the fact that GM's full size SUV hybrids are here NOW.

When are we going to see a Lexus or Toyota 8-passenger hybrid? Or even 6 or 7 passenger hybrid? 2010? 2011? And when it FINALLY appears, what sort of mpg gain can Lexus achieve with 5000 lb and up vehicles?

I'm no GM fanboy myself, BTW. We are a 2-Lexus family, LX and RX. I'm looking to replace them in 2008 with one 6-8 passenger vehicle and one large sedan, and frankly I'm disappointed with what Lexus has to offer for 2008 in the high-mpg department. NO hybrid 6-8 passenger options. NO diesel in that size category in the USA. A LS600hL that offers only an 11% mpg improvement, a tiny trunk for its class, and a big price premium. NO AWD option on the conventional LS460.

 

So what you're saying is you consider GM's system to be BETTER than Toyota's system?

The LS600hL is a performance hybrid first of all, and it has more HP and torque than the GM hybrid SUVs. It's much faster than those GM SUVs.

Also, when moving from a regular Tahoe/Yukon to the hybrid versions, curb weight increases about 250lbs or roughly 6-7%. Moving from an LS460L to an LS600hL is a curb weight increase of roughly 800lbs, or a 16% increase. Yet the LS600hl still manages to get better fuel economy than the LS460L, despite the addition of AWD *and* an 800lb curb weight increase. I consider that just as impressive as what the GM system achieves.

I would have liked to see the fuel economy increase from the GM system if curb weight had gone up by 800lbs.

GM has not yet released 2008 EPA ratings for the regular ICE Yukon and Tahoe models, so we can't yet compare them to their hybrid siblings in terms of EPA increases.

6 or 7 passenger hybrid? Have you not heard of the Highlander Hybrid? Have some patience; the next-gen Sienna is supposed to have a hybrid option, and the next-gen RX should have one as well.

 

Look guys and gals, one more smart comment about Lexus/Toyota fanboy etc, your post will be deleted. This IS a Lexus website.

Stick to the TOPIC at hand.

There are tons of POSITIVE posts in here supporting this vehicle. Please be fair and observe those as well and not just the ones you disagree with.
Thanks

 

Comparing an SUV with a luxury sedan is not really relevant, syswei is saying it's an impressive achievement on GM's part which Toyota/Lexus has yet to match since they offer no hybrid large SUVs. (No, Highlander doesn't count).

I think that's a very accurate assessment.

Yes, but why are we comparing the LS with a GM huge SUV again!?

At least it has room to hold 800lbs of stuff, unlike the LS600 trunk which is smaller than a Civic's.

I'm sure they'll be nice, but they're not competitors to a Yukon/Tahoe either.

 

LS600h: 438 hp
Yukon hybrid: 300 hp

hmmm....



1. Who uses a 4 speed auto anymore?
2. Why do they keep reffering to this vehicle as the first two mode hybrid and the first two mode hybrid SUV. Toyota, Lexus, Ford already did this.

 

Fair enough. I would love to see Lexus come out with a full-size hybrid SUV, because that's what I'd buy to replace my LX. But it doesn't seem to be a near-term event. Among other things, Toyota joining the Big 3 U.S. car companies in lobbying against stricter CAFE standards doesn't suggest particularly timely or fuel efficient Toyota/Lexus SUVs and pickups in the near future.

Is the 250lb vs 800lb comparison an example of Toyota's engineering prowess? Or GM's?

 

Yes, Toyota has yet to match GM with full size hybrid SUVs. Similarly, GM has yet to match Toyota with a midsize car that gets Prius-level fuel economy or offering hybrid crossovers or hybrid luxury cars.

 

I want to revisit this comment. Yes, it is literally true. But an SUV is not a sedan, as has been pointed out. The interesting question, since you bring up the performance angle, is this: What does Lexus HSD do for the LS, as regards economy AND performance, vs what does GM's system do for the Yukon?

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better
curb weight: 17% worse
HP: 15% better
torque: 5% better
0-60: 2% worse
trunk space: 35% less

Yukon Hybrid AWD vs Yukon (5.3 liter RWD):
MPG: 25% better
curb weight: 10% worse
HP: 4% better
torque: 8% better
0-60: unknown, but curb weight gain isn't much more than hp/torque gain
cargo space: unchanged

With the LS, you actually lose a bit of performance (which I'll define as 0-60 time) and get only a 11% mpg gain. With the Yukon, my guess is you won't lose much if any performance, but get a 25% mpg gain. So:

As implemented on Lexus' heaviest hybrid vs GM's heaviest hybrid, yes that is what I'm suggesting.

 

Tahoe hybrid
21/22 2wd
20/20 4wd
6.0L V8
332hp
367lb-ft
5541lbs
5787lbs


non-hybrid Tahoe
14/20 2wd
14/19 4wd
5.3L V8 (cast-iron block)
320hp
340lbft
weight (est)
5265 2wd
5529 4wd

 

true but Toyota/Lexus is more interested in segment firsts apparently. I mean, it already has the world's first luxury SUV hybrid and 7-passenger SUV hybrid (Ford beat Toyota to the first SUV with the Escape).

World's first luxury performance hybrid and world's first luxury hybrid gets more attention than another SUV hybrid. Also, buyers are usually willing to pay a greater premium for the system to help Toyota recoup the cost and pass the savings onto the other units.

This is GM's first full hybrid and it's a pretty good one (the same system is used in a few of our test busses in my city. I've ridden in it and it's pretty cool). However, after GM criticising the Prius for being too complicated and showing how "simple" a Malibu is, they come out with a two-mode system that's more complicated than the HSD system.. good job.

FOUR clutches in an artificial 4-speed auto. Riiight. Compare that to Toyota's simpler planetary gear set that's the size of a pop can

 

God, it's NOT a 4-speed auto. Get your facts right.

 

No i don't own any of the trucks I can't afford them.. i jsut spend few bucks and rent them from Enterprise... in the past few months I rented 2 07 suburbans.. 2 08 tahoes, 07 and 08 expeditions, 07 Amada and couple other SUV's and I rent them pretty frequently so I'm pretty familiar with them..So far I like the new Suburban and Tahoe the best

 

Your points are moot - Lexus hybrids are there to increase performance, not MPG.

And Toyota has heavier hybrid - 4,600 lbs Highlander Hybrid.

It will be interesting to see what is the real life performance of GM hybrids...

 

To me that doesn't make much sense since most performance reports on the LS600h have shown it doesn't accelerate any more quickly than the LS460, and the GS450h doesn't out-perform the GS430 by very much, and probably won't outperform that GS460 at all.

I think the "F" line is meant to be about performance. The "h" line seems like it is meant to improve fuel economy without hurting performance and possibly helping it a bit, even. At least that's the net effect I've observed so far.

 

p.s. did you check improvements on HH vs Highlander?

HH gets better BOTH city and highway mileage. It also improves city mileage by 63% (vs 42% improvement for Chevy).

It seems GM still has a way to go, since HH gets 50% better improvement in city mileage than Yukon and 9.2% increase in highway mpg that Yukon doesnt get at all.