Honda Insight's Batteries Stand Test of Time ...
10-09-07, 07:53 AM
#1
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Honda Insight's Batteries Stand Test of Time ...
MARK PHELAN
Insight's value a telling sign
First hybrids approach end of useful life
October 7, 2007
BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
The original hybrid gas-electric car, the Honda Insight, is about to have a senior moment that could show us what the future holds for the fleet of hybrids that followed the revolutionary little car onto the road.
When the Insight went on sale eight years ago as a 2000 model, Honda said the expensive and complicated battery pack and electric motor would last for the life of the car.
Pinned down about what that meant in people years, the company's engineers said eight to 10 years.
The window for costly repair and replacement just opened. The view looks OK, despite some battery problems that bear watching as the years and miles add up.
The Insight remains a favorite with its owners. Honda's sporty two-seat hatchback amazed people when it debuted in 1999 with claims of 61 m.p.g. in city driving and 70 m.p.g. on the highway. The Insight's star faded when Toyota rolled out the more practical four-door Prius a year later, but the Honda has lots of devoted high-mileage owners.
"I love my car," said Jessie Deeter, a producer of documentary films who lives in Oakland, Calif. She bought a used 2000 Insight about three years ago that generally gets around 60 m.p.g. "I hope my kids can drive it as a collector's car."
Deeter's Insight has about 100,000 miles on it. Honda replaced its battery pack because it was not recharging properly.
"It's like any first-generation technology -- you have to be a little careful with it," Deeter said. For instance, Deeter and her husband leave the windows open on hot days to provide ventilation so the batteries don't overheat.
Honda paid for the replacement batteries, and the company has been very attentive, Deeter said.
Honda won't say how many batteries it has replaced in the 13,886 Insights it sold but calls it a small number. Honda paid for the replacements through warranties, spokesman Chuck Schifsky said.
A replacement battery pack would cost about $3,000 if you had to pay for it yourself. Honda won't say when it stopped building the Insight, but it sold the last new one -- a 2006 model -- in April.
Older Insights and Priuses get raves from Consumer Reports magazine readers, said David Champion, the magazine's director of automotive testing.
"The Insight has always been above average to excellent," Champion said. "The first-year Prius gets five-star ratings for excellent reliability."
The fuel economy for the 2000 Insight that Consumer Reports still tracks has fallen off somewhat over the years.
"It could be the battery has weakened. It could be that the novelty has worn off and people drive it normally now," Champion said.
Hybrids also held up well in J.D. Power and Associates' three-year durability survey, with about 10% fewer problems than gasoline-engine cars, said Joe Ivers, Power's executive director of quality and customer satisfaction.
Oddly enough, the most common problems had little to do with the batteries or electric motors. Repair and replacement of mufflers and exhaust systems, engine computers and instrument panels are all more common for hybrids than other vehicles, Ivers said.
There haven't been any authoritative independent studies of how aging hybrids perform.
That situation will improve slightly later this year, when the Automotive Leasing Group publishes its first report on how older hybrids have depreciated in value.
Prices for a used 2000 Insight in average condition with 100,000 miles and the optional automatic climate control and CD player start at $5,260. That's about 25% of its price when new.
For comparison, a similarly equipped 2000 Civic si -- a sporty gasoline-powered coupe that's a bit bigger than the Insight -- now sells for $5,614, or 31% of its original price.
The Civic si costs a few thousand dollars less than a new Insight but is worth more now. That strongly suggests that buyers still have concerns about hybrids' long-term viability.
The Insight started a revolution. Toyota rode its Prius hybrid's coattails to a major growth spurt. Other automakers initially skeptical about hybrids' value have scrambled to catch up.
We're still waiting for answers to the big questions, though.
Do the batteries and motors last as long as a conventional car's? What's the value of an older hybrid when a new set of batteries costs more than the car is worth?
Resale value has held up well so far, Champion said, adding that "past this point will be the real question. How much will a person be willing to spend if the cost of repairs is very high and the value of the car is quite low?
"We'll find out over the next couple of years."
Insight's value a telling sign
First hybrids approach end of useful life
October 7, 2007
BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
The original hybrid gas-electric car, the Honda Insight, is about to have a senior moment that could show us what the future holds for the fleet of hybrids that followed the revolutionary little car onto the road.
When the Insight went on sale eight years ago as a 2000 model, Honda said the expensive and complicated battery pack and electric motor would last for the life of the car.
Pinned down about what that meant in people years, the company's engineers said eight to 10 years.
The window for costly repair and replacement just opened. The view looks OK, despite some battery problems that bear watching as the years and miles add up.
The Insight remains a favorite with its owners. Honda's sporty two-seat hatchback amazed people when it debuted in 1999 with claims of 61 m.p.g. in city driving and 70 m.p.g. on the highway. The Insight's star faded when Toyota rolled out the more practical four-door Prius a year later, but the Honda has lots of devoted high-mileage owners.
"I love my car," said Jessie Deeter, a producer of documentary films who lives in Oakland, Calif. She bought a used 2000 Insight about three years ago that generally gets around 60 m.p.g. "I hope my kids can drive it as a collector's car."
Deeter's Insight has about 100,000 miles on it. Honda replaced its battery pack because it was not recharging properly.
"It's like any first-generation technology -- you have to be a little careful with it," Deeter said. For instance, Deeter and her husband leave the windows open on hot days to provide ventilation so the batteries don't overheat.
Honda paid for the replacement batteries, and the company has been very attentive, Deeter said.
Honda won't say how many batteries it has replaced in the 13,886 Insights it sold but calls it a small number. Honda paid for the replacements through warranties, spokesman Chuck Schifsky said.
A replacement battery pack would cost about $3,000 if you had to pay for it yourself. Honda won't say when it stopped building the Insight, but it sold the last new one -- a 2006 model -- in April.
Older Insights and Priuses get raves from Consumer Reports magazine readers, said David Champion, the magazine's director of automotive testing.
"The Insight has always been above average to excellent," Champion said. "The first-year Prius gets five-star ratings for excellent reliability."
The fuel economy for the 2000 Insight that Consumer Reports still tracks has fallen off somewhat over the years.
"It could be the battery has weakened. It could be that the novelty has worn off and people drive it normally now," Champion said.
Hybrids also held up well in J.D. Power and Associates' three-year durability survey, with about 10% fewer problems than gasoline-engine cars, said Joe Ivers, Power's executive director of quality and customer satisfaction.
Oddly enough, the most common problems had little to do with the batteries or electric motors. Repair and replacement of mufflers and exhaust systems, engine computers and instrument panels are all more common for hybrids than other vehicles, Ivers said.
There haven't been any authoritative independent studies of how aging hybrids perform.
That situation will improve slightly later this year, when the Automotive Leasing Group publishes its first report on how older hybrids have depreciated in value.
Prices for a used 2000 Insight in average condition with 100,000 miles and the optional automatic climate control and CD player start at $5,260. That's about 25% of its price when new.
For comparison, a similarly equipped 2000 Civic si -- a sporty gasoline-powered coupe that's a bit bigger than the Insight -- now sells for $5,614, or 31% of its original price.
The Civic si costs a few thousand dollars less than a new Insight but is worth more now. That strongly suggests that buyers still have concerns about hybrids' long-term viability.
The Insight started a revolution. Toyota rode its Prius hybrid's coattails to a major growth spurt. Other automakers initially skeptical about hybrids' value have scrambled to catch up.
We're still waiting for answers to the big questions, though.
Do the batteries and motors last as long as a conventional car's? What's the value of an older hybrid when a new set of batteries costs more than the car is worth?
Resale value has held up well so far, Champion said, adding that "past this point will be the real question. How much will a person be willing to spend if the cost of repairs is very high and the value of the car is quite low?
"We'll find out over the next couple of years."
10-09-07, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Phelan
The original hybrid gas-electric car
Originally Posted by Mark Phelan
The Insight started a revolution.
Will North American journalists EVER get it right?For the umpteenth time, the Insight IS NOT and WAS NOT the "original" hybrid gas-electric car. The Prius went on sale BEFORE the Insight in Japan, so in fact the Prius is the original. The Insight beat the Prius to market in North America by a few months, but neither car debuted originally in North America.
Mark Phelan and other journalists need to get a clue
.
10-09-07, 10:59 AM
#3
They didn't say how many miles on the Civic Si. They left it to the reader to assume that it's also 100,000 miles. Plus the Civic Si doesn't have a CD player or automatic climate control.. or even alloys for that matter.
10-09-07, 12:51 PM
#4
The 2000 Civic Si should have been available with a CD player option and it did have 16" alloy rims. The reason why the assumed 100K Civic has a pretty good resale value is mostly because of that nice little 1.6L 160HP DOHC VTEC engine that the young people love to mod.
10-09-07, 06:36 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
:
For the umpteenth time, the Insight IS NOT and WAS NOT the "original" hybrid gas-electric car. The Prius went on sale BEFORE the Insight in Japan, so in fact the Prius is the original. The Insight beat the Prius to market in North America by a few months, but neither car debuted originally in North America.
Mark Phelan and other journalists need to get a clue.
For the umpteenth time, the Insight IS NOT and WAS NOT the "original" hybrid gas-electric car. The Prius went on sale BEFORE the Insight in Japan, so in fact the Prius is the original. The Insight beat the Prius to market in North America by a few months, but neither car debuted originally in North America.
Mark Phelan and other journalists need to get a clue
.I got to test-drive and review one of the first Insights that made it into the D.C. area in January 2000, but the first-generation Prius did not make it here to the American market until September or so. This is inexplicable, considering that, as TRDFantasy says, it had already been on sale in Japan for some 18 months or so. It certainly was not an EPA-induced delay, as both the Insight and Prius, at that time, were the lowest-polluting cars on the market short of pure electrics like GM's Impact. The Insight was also offered in Japan prior to it's American debut, but I don't remember for how long.
It is possible that at least some of the delay was in getting a left-hand drive version ready for the U.S. market......home-market Japanese vehicles have right-hand drive like British/Australian ones.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-09-07 at 06:40 PM.
10-09-07, 06:48 PM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
Hybrids also held up well in J.D. Power and Associates' three-year durability survey, with about 10% fewer problems than gasoline-engine cars, said Joe Ivers, Power's executive director of quality and customer satisfaction.
10-09-07, 07:29 PM
#7
The 2000 Civic Si should have been available with a CD player option and it did have 16" alloy rims. The reason why the assumed 100K Civic has a pretty good resale value is mostly because of that nice little 1.6L 160HP DOHC VTEC engine that the young people love to mod.
I forgot... you guys call it the Si. We call it the SiR lol. Our Civic Si is different.
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