Toyota Crown Hybrid
10-10-07, 04:15 PM
#16
It could make sense in the fact that as Lexus become more sporting, the upper end Toyota models can fill in the pure luxury gap left behind. But I mostly agree that its probably not necessary. At least not in the near future.
10-10-07, 05:04 PM
#18
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What you don't seem to understand is that Lexus has been trying to distinguish itself from Toyota and become a completely separate brand on its own. To keep referring to it as "Toyota's upscale brand" turns whatever prestige the Lexus name has into something cheaper. The fact that you don't seem to realize this is astonishing.
There is a reason why Toyota created the Lexus line. At the time, they felt they needed a luxury name to sell luxury cars. They were right - at that time. But things have changed and the Toyota name is much more respected now than it was 20 years ago. It is for this reason that I believe it would be possible for Toyota, the brand, to bring to market its own higher end models. Certainly I'm not suggesting they start putting out 100k luxury cruisers. But if they could sell 40k+ cars in Japan for years under the Toyota name, why couldn't they do it here?
And please, no comparisons to Volkswagen and what they tried to do with the Phaeton. Volkswagen does not have nearly the same brand recognition in this country that Toyota does.
There is a reason why Toyota created the Lexus line. At the time, they felt they needed a luxury name to sell luxury cars. They were right - at that time. But things have changed and the Toyota name is much more respected now than it was 20 years ago. It is for this reason that I believe it would be possible for Toyota, the brand, to bring to market its own higher end models. Certainly I'm not suggesting they start putting out 100k luxury cruisers. But if they could sell 40k+ cars in Japan for years under the Toyota name, why couldn't they do it here?
And please, no comparisons to Volkswagen and what they tried to do with the Phaeton. Volkswagen does not have nearly the same brand recognition in this country that Toyota does.
In 20 years we are talking about being laughed at to being a tier I luxury brand. A lot of that was differentiating Toyota/Lexus from a pricing standpoint. YOU may think differently, but TOyota/Lexus wants as little overlapping as possible. You want a luxury car/SUV, 9 times out of 10 (Avalon, LC, Crown) you go buy a Lexus.
$40,000 luxury cars/SUVS have a hard time selling. Look no further than the Acura RL or Volvo S80. A $40,000 Toyota Crown has no place in America or Europe or anywhere outside of Japan.
And I LIKE the Crown and had a chance to see one inside and out at the Team Lexus facility a couple years ago.
10-10-07, 05:44 PM
#20
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Outside Japan, it would flop.
10-10-07, 06:02 PM
#21
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Toyota Sequoia: starts at $33,000
Toyota Landcruiser: starts at $63,000
Toyota Sequoia sales for September: 1,660 units
Toyota Landcruiser sales for September: 163 units
For comparisons sake, the Landcruiser sold twice as many units at $63,000 a piece than Lexus sold GS430/450s priced at $54,000 a piece for the month of September. Completely different models of course, catering to different customers, but the point is, Toyota is already selling a model that is outselling a Lexus model that costs less.
Don't forget the Avalon, which can max out above $30k as well (well within ES/IS territory).
Toyota Avalon sales for September: 6,066 units
Lexus ES sales for September: 6,491 units
10-10-07, 06:09 PM
#22
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Please do not sit there are try to convince me that Toyota, the brand, cannot sell a car/SUV that is priced in luxury territory. Look no further than the Land Cruiser and the Sequoia as two prime examples of Toyota products sold in this country that sell in luxury territory:
You are basing 2 SUVs priced in Lexus's range when EVERY LARGE SUV is priced in this range from EVERY brand. Armada, Tahoe, Yukon, etc etc etc all are priced high and sell, thus your argument has no merit.
Toyota Sequoia: starts at $33,000
Toyota Landcruiser: starts at $63,000
Toyota Sequoia sales for September: 1,660 units
Toyota Landcruiser sales for September: 163 units
For comparisons sake, the Landcruiser sold twice as many units at $63,000 a piece than Lexus sold GS430/450s priced at $54,000 a piece for the month of September. Completely different models of course, catering to different customers, but the point is, Toyota is already selling a model that is outselling a Lexus model that costs less.
FOR THE 500TH TIME THE GS 450H IS A LIMITED PRODUCTION MODEL of ONLY 1800 ALLOCATED TO AMERICA. STOP COMPARING IT. IT CANNOT BE COMPARED TO ANYTHING. The GS 430 is not even in production.
Don't forget the Avalon, which can max out above $30k as well (well within ES/IS territory).
I said the Avalon. While they do cross in price, the ES has a higher BASE price and loaded is over $40,000. The Avalon starts in the high 20k range and cannot hit 40k loaded. There is some overlap.
The Acura RL doesn't sell for many reasons. It certainly has the potential to sell as well as the GS or M, but due to Acura not knowing how to market a car in that range, sales are suffering. $40,000 cars/SUVs are not big sellers in general. We know this. Doesn't mean a comparable $40k car or any price ranged car with a Toyota badge wouldn't sell as well as one with a Lexus badge (or at least close to it) - prime example? ES350 vs. Avalon:
Toyota Avalon sales for September: 6,066 units
Lexus ES sales for September: 6,491 units
You again fail to undersand they have some models where a loaded Avalon is in ES range but the majority are not sold that way. The ES starts at 33k.
You are basing 2 SUVs priced in Lexus's range when EVERY LARGE SUV is priced in this range from EVERY brand. Armada, Tahoe, Yukon, etc etc etc all are priced high and sell, thus your argument has no merit.
Toyota Sequoia: starts at $33,000
Toyota Landcruiser: starts at $63,000
Toyota Sequoia sales for September: 1,660 units
Toyota Landcruiser sales for September: 163 units
For comparisons sake, the Landcruiser sold twice as many units at $63,000 a piece than Lexus sold GS430/450s priced at $54,000 a piece for the month of September. Completely different models of course, catering to different customers, but the point is, Toyota is already selling a model that is outselling a Lexus model that costs less.
FOR THE 500TH TIME THE GS 450H IS A LIMITED PRODUCTION MODEL of ONLY 1800 ALLOCATED TO AMERICA. STOP COMPARING IT. IT CANNOT BE COMPARED TO ANYTHING. The GS 430 is not even in production.
Don't forget the Avalon, which can max out above $30k as well (well within ES/IS territory).
I said the Avalon. While they do cross in price, the ES has a higher BASE price and loaded is over $40,000. The Avalon starts in the high 20k range and cannot hit 40k loaded. There is some overlap.
The Acura RL doesn't sell for many reasons. It certainly has the potential to sell as well as the GS or M, but due to Acura not knowing how to market a car in that range, sales are suffering. $40,000 cars/SUVs are not big sellers in general. We know this. Doesn't mean a comparable $40k car or any price ranged car with a Toyota badge wouldn't sell as well as one with a Lexus badge (or at least close to it) - prime example? ES350 vs. Avalon:
Toyota Avalon sales for September: 6,066 units
Lexus ES sales for September: 6,491 units
You again fail to undersand they have some models where a loaded Avalon is in ES range but the majority are not sold that way. The ES starts at 33k.
Is there some overlap? Yes there yes. EVERYONE has overlap.
A $40,000 Toyota Crown will RUST in America. Avalon sales are down for instance. At $40,000 most people hell leave their Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Saabs, etc sedans to go to BMW, LExus and Benz.
A $40,000 Toyota sedan, as GOOD as the Crown is, would fail miserably. It would not stand a chance in America or Europe.
Again, the ONLY REASON it does well in Japan at that price is b/c it is considered to be one of the GRANDEST Japanese cars you can buy. CROWN in Japan=
Crown in America or Europe would be
10-10-07, 07:02 PM
#23
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The Tahoe starts at $35k
The Yukon stars at $35k
The Landcruiser starts at $63k, so your argument has no merit. Whether it is one or two or three models that sell in luxury territory, the fact is that the Toyota Landcruiser starts at $63,000 - well above the Armada, the Tahoe, & and the Yukon - and it sells. If it didn't, Toyota wouldn't bother producing it.
Anyway, point is, the Landcruiser, as a single Toyota model, is outselling the Lexus GS430/450h (2 models) at the moment.
Toyota and Lexus CONTINUE to be ADAMANT there will be little is any product overlap. IT CONFUSES buyers.
Is there some overlap? Yes there yes. EVERYONE has overlap.
A $40,000 Toyota Crown will RUST in America. Avalon sales are down for instance. At $40,000 most people hell leave their Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Saabs, etc sedans to go to BMW, LExus and Benz.
A $40,000 Toyota sedan, as GOOD as the Crown is, would fail miserably. It would not stand a chance in America or Europe.
Again, the ONLY REASON it does well in Japan at that price is b/c it is considered to be one of the GRANDEST Japanese cars you can buy. CROWN in Japan=
Crown in America or Europe would be
Is there some overlap? Yes there yes. EVERYONE has overlap.
A $40,000 Toyota Crown will RUST in America. Avalon sales are down for instance. At $40,000 most people hell leave their Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Saabs, etc sedans to go to BMW, LExus and Benz.
A $40,000 Toyota sedan, as GOOD as the Crown is, would fail miserably. It would not stand a chance in America or Europe.
Again, the ONLY REASON it does well in Japan at that price is b/c it is considered to be one of the GRANDEST Japanese cars you can buy. CROWN in Japan=
Crown in America or Europe would be
10-10-07, 07:11 PM
#24
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lol, you don't get it. Somehow, you know what is best for Toyota/Lexus when they have avoided the mistakes YOU are saying to make. The mistakes others have made and they are still paying for them.
We can agree to disagree. Crown ain't coming here and never will as it should. And it won't be rebadged and brought here either like the Fuga, Legend, Skyline, etc.
It is for Japan
THe rest of the world gets the GS.
The Landcrusier is one of the most revered SUVs in the world. Its ALWAYS been more expensive than most SUVs. Its simply a Land Cruiser, which makes people overlook the fact it is Toyota.
I digress.
We can agree to disagree. Crown ain't coming here and never will as it should. And it won't be rebadged and brought here either like the Fuga, Legend, Skyline, etc.
It is for Japan
THe rest of the world gets the GS.
The Landcrusier is one of the most revered SUVs in the world. Its ALWAYS been more expensive than most SUVs. Its simply a Land Cruiser, which makes people overlook the fact it is Toyota.
I digress.
10-10-07, 07:20 PM
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lol, you don't get it. Somehow, you know what is best for Toyota/Lexus when they have avoided the mistakes YOU are saying to make. The mistakes others have made and they are still paying for them.
We can agree to disagree. Crown ain't coming here and never will as it should. And it won't be rebadged and brought here either like the Fuga, Legend, Skyline, etc.
We can agree to disagree. Crown ain't coming here and never will as it should. And it won't be rebadged and brought here either like the Fuga, Legend, Skyline, etc.
I guess I'll assume you're right about the Crown never making its way here, as you always seem to have the inside scoop (like when you said the new GS460 would produce 400hp).
Anyway, yea, let's agree to disagree
ok
10-10-07, 07:24 PM
#26
I believe the LC is no longer for sale in the US?? Or is that after this current generation?
This would work if Lexus was like Infiniti and Acura and needed a flagship car (Legend and Cima). The problem is, we already have the Celsior/LS and it's the next level up.
The Crown doesn't have the history like it does in Japan. People aspire to own a Crown as they progress through life and eventually have the funds to get one. The Crown to them is what the LS is to us.
This would work if Lexus was like Infiniti and Acura and needed a flagship car (Legend and Cima). The problem is, we already have the Celsior/LS and it's the next level up.
The Crown doesn't have the history like it does in Japan. People aspire to own a Crown as they progress through life and eventually have the funds to get one. The Crown to them is what the LS is to us.
10-10-07, 07:43 PM
#27
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10-10-07, 08:17 PM
#28
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The LX 470/570 is not a simple rebadge. While not huge differences, there are differences between the two.
I GUESSED the GS 460 would make 400hp. I said I "PREDICTED" it.
Keep digging your hole.
10-10-07, 08:45 PM
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No, you alluded to having inside info. It wasn't a prediction. Don't make me dig up the various threads to prove it to you. I have better things to do.
Ouch, that stung a little.