Lexus, BMW, Mercedes Benz?
11-09-07, 02:16 PM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
11-09-07, 02:27 PM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
EDIT: Ahhhh never mind me...sorry I totally missed the "IMO" part.
11-09-07, 02:32 PM
#35
I personally could give a rats behind what class Lexus or any of the other cars are in. I buy the car based on the car itself and not really the badge. My break down of car classes are much smaller than other peoples and even ten industry. I simply use economy cars, luxury cars, sports cars, exotics, and of course those ultra luxury cars like Bentley, Rolls Royce and such. So, for me, economy cars cover all cars like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Hyundai and the like. Luxury cars cover all cars like Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and the like. Sports cars cover Corvettes, Porsches, and such. Exotics cover Ferrari, Lamborghini and such. Ultra Luxury as I mentioned cover Bentley, Rolls and such.
For me, splitting luxury cars in to Tier 1, entry level and whatnot are just nonsense. It is just a way to make people feel more up scale than the next guy. I do use entry level, and Tier 1 and such for comparisons reasons just because the industry uses it and it is easier for others to compare that way, but I personally could care less.
Here is my example. I consider an Acura RL much more high end and luxurious over a Lexus IS350, RX350, ES350 and such. Just because Lexus is considered to be a higher tier luxury name than Acura, I wouldn't consider cars like the RL, Infiniti M35/45, Audi A6, to be less of a luxury car than a Lexus IS or ES. In fact, I would place those cars higher on the luxury food chain myself.
I buy my cars the way I dress. I buy that I want, like, and does the job I want it to do. I'm definitely NOT a name brand ***** and for most things I wouldn't pay extra money just for the name when a lesser name does the job just as well.
For me, splitting luxury cars in to Tier 1, entry level and whatnot are just nonsense. It is just a way to make people feel more up scale than the next guy. I do use entry level, and Tier 1 and such for comparisons reasons just because the industry uses it and it is easier for others to compare that way, but I personally could care less.
Here is my example. I consider an Acura RL much more high end and luxurious over a Lexus IS350, RX350, ES350 and such. Just because Lexus is considered to be a higher tier luxury name than Acura, I wouldn't consider cars like the RL, Infiniti M35/45, Audi A6, to be less of a luxury car than a Lexus IS or ES. In fact, I would place those cars higher on the luxury food chain myself.
I buy my cars the way I dress. I buy that I want, like, and does the job I want it to do. I'm definitely NOT a name brand ***** and for most things I wouldn't pay extra money just for the name when a lesser name does the job just as well.
I judge by individual models as well as overall quality and amenities. I certainly wouldn't rate a Benz C-class over a Q45. I would rate the S-class over the Q but just barely since I value reliability most.
On the other hand, I do understand. It's brand identification. A sound marketing strategy and Lexus has done it well. Based on that identification, it does feel good to drive a car that many consider one of the best. In the final analysis, it's just a car. A nice car but still a car. I loved the modded Nissan Sentra I had just as much as I have any other car I've owned. Got just as much attention too. The car doesn't make me....I make the car....and I make all of mine look good.
11-10-07, 11:05 AM
#36
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IMO, Lexus, BMW, & MB are all Tier 1 luxury brands, but they are definitely not equal. Of all 3, Mercedes has the most high end offerings and with that comes a certain level of prestige that the other two do not have.
Highest base priced Mercedes: 2008 S65/CL65 AMG - $197,000
Highest base priced BMW: 2008 760li - $122,000
Highest base priced Lexus: 2008 600hl - $104,000
Mercedes has 12 vehicles priced at or over $100,000
BMW has 3 vehicles priced at or over $100,000
Lexus has 1 vehicle priced at or over $100,00
While price isn't everything, you simply cannot deny the fact that a vehicle that costs 200k is perceived to be of a higher status than one that costs $100k. Mercedes simply has a more high end lineup than both BMW & Lexus and therefore, IMO is a bit higher up on the ladder than either of the other two.
If I were to rank them on the perception of prestige/exclusivity, it would be like this:
Mercedes - Tier 1A
BMW - Tier 1B
Lexus - Tier 1C
I think eventually Lexus will add more vehicles to their lineup and perhaps in time be able to match MB head-to-head, but they're not there yet.
Highest base priced Mercedes: 2008 S65/CL65 AMG - $197,000
Highest base priced BMW: 2008 760li - $122,000
Highest base priced Lexus: 2008 600hl - $104,000
Mercedes has 12 vehicles priced at or over $100,000
BMW has 3 vehicles priced at or over $100,000
Lexus has 1 vehicle priced at or over $100,00
While price isn't everything, you simply cannot deny the fact that a vehicle that costs 200k is perceived to be of a higher status than one that costs $100k. Mercedes simply has a more high end lineup than both BMW & Lexus and therefore, IMO is a bit higher up on the ladder than either of the other two.
If I were to rank them on the perception of prestige/exclusivity, it would be like this:
Mercedes - Tier 1A
BMW - Tier 1B
Lexus - Tier 1C
I think eventually Lexus will add more vehicles to their lineup and perhaps in time be able to match MB head-to-head, but they're not there yet.
11-10-07, 11:21 AM
#38
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If we begin breaking Tier I, then we need to break down Tier II and III and well, we will have some luxury brands under Hyundai.......
BMW and Benz is still more "prestige" wise over Lexus. Lexus is not far behind though and its just amazing what they have done in 20 years, especially when you look who they passed along the way. Speaking to normal people, these are the 3 brands mentioned 9 times out of 10. These 3 brands do a great job with marketing as well.
Whats amazing is Benzs cost in Aston Martin/Ferrari etc money fully loaded in AMG guise!!
BMW and Benz is still more "prestige" wise over Lexus. Lexus is not far behind though and its just amazing what they have done in 20 years, especially when you look who they passed along the way. Speaking to normal people, these are the 3 brands mentioned 9 times out of 10. These 3 brands do a great job with marketing as well.
Whats amazing is Benzs cost in Aston Martin/Ferrari etc money fully loaded in AMG guise!!
11-10-07, 02:49 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
I don't really buy into the prestige or tier nonsense many uneducated car shoppers go by. If people chose or admire cars/brands just based off of so called prestige or tier category then they generally do not know much about cars and are certainly are not enthusiasts. I chose cars and admire cars based on the car and its merit and not where some people think it stands. People who generally go by prestige and tier when they buy and recommend cars usaully have low self esteem, big egos, and are not very confident in themselvers, and are not true enthusiasts so they think by buying a car that some people consider more prestigious or higher tiered makes them feel more important and they usaully feel superior telling people they drive a so called higher tiered brand.
If I were to break up cars into tiers or prestige categories then it would be
Rolls Royce, Bently, Buggatti, Aston Martin for your exotic super expensive highest prestige cars that only certain extremely rich individuals will buy no matter what the cost, (Ferrari, Lambo,) being exotic sports cars that only extremely rich generally buy no matter cost as well as a few other really small brands like Pagani, McLaren,Konisegg,etc. These are the cars most people drool over yet will never be able to own let alone see on the road and are out of reach to 99% out there. They are super exclusive.
To me Mercedes, BMW, and followed by Audi are the general top luxury brands available that are obtainable to more people, they are German and people overpay for most of these brands cars no matter what the actual merits are because of the name brand. They have a couple vehicles over 100K and have available v-10/V-12 engines mainly for bragging rights and people do buy them. Mercedes focuses on luxury,BMW focuses on Sport and Audi falls in the middle. Jaguar used to be in this category but took a nose dive although they are coming back and generally sits a bite below the 3 German powerhouses although Jag does have a decent cult following. These brands are able to sell cars costing well over 60K either in the US or around the world even though they may be poorly built and unreliable. Porsche and Masserati somewhat fall in this category for sports cars/sedans and are maybe a little higher on the totem pole as they have no entry level affordable models. People generally feel that these European makes command high prices and people will pay them just based off of brand name and say they drive a Europeand luxury car.
Next you have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. They are all upmarket Japanese luxury brands that are owned by more affordable mass market Japanese brands Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. I don't see a real difference in either of these brands aside from having some different types of cars in different categories. Lexus and Acura have been very successful with luxury cars/SUVs focusing on value and reliability/build quality. Infiniti has not been very successful over the years even though they had a variety of vehicles to compete with luxury cars but recently with the G35, FX, and M they are on target and look to be a pretty big player in this segment. All of these 3 brands cars were less expensive and generally more reliable then their European competition which is why at least Acura and Lexus became successful. If they sold vehicles that cost more or just as much as the higher end European models then they would not be nearly as successful as the general public will not overpay for these brands like they will for European brands like Merc and BMW. Often Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti models have superior powertrains and features yet still sell for less. Most people who buy these vehicles buy them on the merit of the vehicle/value/reliability and not just the brand like many uneducated car buyers. The bulk of sales and profits from these brands are from cars under 50K like the ES, RX, TL, TSX, MDX,GS, FX which are generally share platforms with lesser priced cars from their larger brands and are priced lower compared to competition. Most of their mid priced car sales are v-6 models that are not fully loaded. These brands don't have alot of vehicles to chose from costing well over 50K. Lexus has been the most successful at selling cars/SUVs over 50K but none of these brands sell super expensive cars with v-10/v12 engines costing over 90K. Lexus does have a hybrid LS and Acura did have a mid engined exotic over 90K but those are the exeptions and neither are setting or set the market on fire. These brands will continue to offer more expensive and high end cars but the bulk of their sales will generally be on the less expensive entry level offerings and their cars will need to undercut the European competition in price to be successful.
In my opinion Lexus is not in the same category as Merc BMW even though they do have cars competing with several of their cars. Acura and Infiniti have cars competing with several Merc, BMW, Audi models too but they still are generally a good deal less expensive. Uneducated car buyers are generally not going to overpay for Lexus, Acura, Infiniti cars just based off of brand or prestige like they would the European luxury brands which is why they generally have to price their cars lower and offer more for your money. If Lexus loses its reliability/build quality/value edge on its cars costing over 50K then they would sell poorly just based on the actual car and brand because European cars are generally look more expensive and a little more elegant. I don't think Lexus vehicles costing over 50K are what people generally drool over or really want and sell more based of of value and ownership experience.
You then have brands like Saab, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Puegot, that are generally more expensive then your popular brands like Honda, Toyota, GM, but not by that much. They have some pretty nice cars and some vehicles compete with the more expensive European and Japanese luxury competition but they fall somewhere below Lexus, Acura, Infiniti and a little above the more popular brands. They are more less niche brands with lower sales numbers and some odd/different styling and layouts of thier vehicles.
Car for car an enthusiasts knows you can't say a RL, GS, or M is below a 3 series, C class, or A4 just because the brand is not perceived as highly as the Europeans. The old Merc M class was absolute crap compared to a RX or MDX yet many bought it soley based on it being a Mercedes because saying they drove a Mercedes made them feel better and superior then saying they drove a Acura or Lexus. Most of them regretted their decision but many will go back to Mercedes because they perceive it as a superior brand instead of actually studying the vehicle and its competition. When people start throwing around Tier 1 brand or that it is a Mercedes or BMW or whatever brand and has to be superior to other brands they think are below it I know they are not real car enthusiasts nor do they actually compare the car for its merits and look at just the brand and the general need to feel assured in their lives that they drive a car other non car enthusiasts agree is a tier 1 brand or superior to another brand. After comparing a Acura RL and Infiniti M I will gladly buy one any day over a more expensive base 5 series, or a equal priced C class, or 3 series no matter what other people think because I am a enthusiasts and base a car on the car not its brand or so called Tier ranking. I do like alot of more expensive cars like the S class, CL class, A8, SLR, AMG models but I feel they are way overpriced based soley on brand name and not the actaul car.
If I were to break up cars into tiers or prestige categories then it would be
Rolls Royce, Bently, Buggatti, Aston Martin for your exotic super expensive highest prestige cars that only certain extremely rich individuals will buy no matter what the cost, (Ferrari, Lambo,) being exotic sports cars that only extremely rich generally buy no matter cost as well as a few other really small brands like Pagani, McLaren,Konisegg,etc. These are the cars most people drool over yet will never be able to own let alone see on the road and are out of reach to 99% out there. They are super exclusive.
To me Mercedes, BMW, and followed by Audi are the general top luxury brands available that are obtainable to more people, they are German and people overpay for most of these brands cars no matter what the actual merits are because of the name brand. They have a couple vehicles over 100K and have available v-10/V-12 engines mainly for bragging rights and people do buy them. Mercedes focuses on luxury,BMW focuses on Sport and Audi falls in the middle. Jaguar used to be in this category but took a nose dive although they are coming back and generally sits a bite below the 3 German powerhouses although Jag does have a decent cult following. These brands are able to sell cars costing well over 60K either in the US or around the world even though they may be poorly built and unreliable. Porsche and Masserati somewhat fall in this category for sports cars/sedans and are maybe a little higher on the totem pole as they have no entry level affordable models. People generally feel that these European makes command high prices and people will pay them just based off of brand name and say they drive a Europeand luxury car.
Next you have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. They are all upmarket Japanese luxury brands that are owned by more affordable mass market Japanese brands Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. I don't see a real difference in either of these brands aside from having some different types of cars in different categories. Lexus and Acura have been very successful with luxury cars/SUVs focusing on value and reliability/build quality. Infiniti has not been very successful over the years even though they had a variety of vehicles to compete with luxury cars but recently with the G35, FX, and M they are on target and look to be a pretty big player in this segment. All of these 3 brands cars were less expensive and generally more reliable then their European competition which is why at least Acura and Lexus became successful. If they sold vehicles that cost more or just as much as the higher end European models then they would not be nearly as successful as the general public will not overpay for these brands like they will for European brands like Merc and BMW. Often Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti models have superior powertrains and features yet still sell for less. Most people who buy these vehicles buy them on the merit of the vehicle/value/reliability and not just the brand like many uneducated car buyers. The bulk of sales and profits from these brands are from cars under 50K like the ES, RX, TL, TSX, MDX,GS, FX which are generally share platforms with lesser priced cars from their larger brands and are priced lower compared to competition. Most of their mid priced car sales are v-6 models that are not fully loaded. These brands don't have alot of vehicles to chose from costing well over 50K. Lexus has been the most successful at selling cars/SUVs over 50K but none of these brands sell super expensive cars with v-10/v12 engines costing over 90K. Lexus does have a hybrid LS and Acura did have a mid engined exotic over 90K but those are the exeptions and neither are setting or set the market on fire. These brands will continue to offer more expensive and high end cars but the bulk of their sales will generally be on the less expensive entry level offerings and their cars will need to undercut the European competition in price to be successful.
In my opinion Lexus is not in the same category as Merc BMW even though they do have cars competing with several of their cars. Acura and Infiniti have cars competing with several Merc, BMW, Audi models too but they still are generally a good deal less expensive. Uneducated car buyers are generally not going to overpay for Lexus, Acura, Infiniti cars just based off of brand or prestige like they would the European luxury brands which is why they generally have to price their cars lower and offer more for your money. If Lexus loses its reliability/build quality/value edge on its cars costing over 50K then they would sell poorly just based on the actual car and brand because European cars are generally look more expensive and a little more elegant. I don't think Lexus vehicles costing over 50K are what people generally drool over or really want and sell more based of of value and ownership experience.
You then have brands like Saab, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Puegot, that are generally more expensive then your popular brands like Honda, Toyota, GM, but not by that much. They have some pretty nice cars and some vehicles compete with the more expensive European and Japanese luxury competition but they fall somewhere below Lexus, Acura, Infiniti and a little above the more popular brands. They are more less niche brands with lower sales numbers and some odd/different styling and layouts of thier vehicles.
Car for car an enthusiasts knows you can't say a RL, GS, or M is below a 3 series, C class, or A4 just because the brand is not perceived as highly as the Europeans. The old Merc M class was absolute crap compared to a RX or MDX yet many bought it soley based on it being a Mercedes because saying they drove a Mercedes made them feel better and superior then saying they drove a Acura or Lexus. Most of them regretted their decision but many will go back to Mercedes because they perceive it as a superior brand instead of actually studying the vehicle and its competition. When people start throwing around Tier 1 brand or that it is a Mercedes or BMW or whatever brand and has to be superior to other brands they think are below it I know they are not real car enthusiasts nor do they actually compare the car for its merits and look at just the brand and the general need to feel assured in their lives that they drive a car other non car enthusiasts agree is a tier 1 brand or superior to another brand. After comparing a Acura RL and Infiniti M I will gladly buy one any day over a more expensive base 5 series, or a equal priced C class, or 3 series no matter what other people think because I am a enthusiasts and base a car on the car not its brand or so called Tier ranking. I do like alot of more expensive cars like the S class, CL class, A8, SLR, AMG models but I feel they are way overpriced based soley on brand name and not the actaul car.
11-10-07, 03:27 PM
#40
I agree the luxury car buyer won't pay or overpay the premium cost of say a Benz or Bimmer. That's mainly because they don't fell Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are pure bred autos. They consider them bastard children of their parents Toyota, Honda and Nissan. It doesn't matter what Lexus builds or makes, it won't ever have the the prestige of Benz in the eyes of many.
Quick test, who designed/produced the first Lexus. I don't know.
Who made the first car in history, Carl Benz.
What's the most famous Lexus. I don't know.
What's the most famous Bimmer. I'd say either the 2002 or the M1.
How old is Lexus. What is it 17 years.
How old is Benz, well it's the first car, nuff said.
So, I understand why some people don't put Lexus in the top tier. I just don't agree with it. I think Lexus has made up for all that time. Well, almost. They're getting there. Five years ago, most of the models seemed soul-less. Now they all seem to have an identity, a personlity. I feel it with my cars. There's that recognizable smell they all have. That ride. The way the chasis feels. The way the interior feels. The way the tranny feels and glides and shifts. It comes from history. Lexus will get there.
Quick test, who designed/produced the first Lexus. I don't know.
Who made the first car in history, Carl Benz.
What's the most famous Lexus. I don't know.
What's the most famous Bimmer. I'd say either the 2002 or the M1.
How old is Lexus. What is it 17 years.
How old is Benz, well it's the first car, nuff said.
So, I understand why some people don't put Lexus in the top tier. I just don't agree with it. I think Lexus has made up for all that time. Well, almost. They're getting there. Five years ago, most of the models seemed soul-less. Now they all seem to have an identity, a personlity. I feel it with my cars. There's that recognizable smell they all have. That ride. The way the chasis feels. The way the interior feels. The way the tranny feels and glides and shifts. It comes from history. Lexus will get there.
11-10-07, 04:23 PM
#41
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Luxury Institute Survey: Most Prestigious Brands 1) Porsche 2) Lexus + Mercedes (tie)
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...hlight=PORSCHE
http://www.sys-con.com/read/358481.htm
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...hlight=PORSCHE
http://www.sys-con.com/read/358481.htm
11-10-07, 04:25 PM
#42
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Above was this year, this below is for 2006
Luxury Institute Survey: Most Prestigious Brands 1) Porsche 2) Benz 3) Lexus
Lexus moves up from fourth, displacing BMW to become third most prestigious brand in the US, according to a survey of 500 high-income buyers nationwide. Lexus was also the #1 most recommended brand of luxury consumers, and quality was the key factor.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...13/003900.html
Luxury Institute Survey: Most Prestigious Brands 1) Porsche 2) Benz 3) Lexus
Lexus moves up from fourth, displacing BMW to become third most prestigious brand in the US, according to a survey of 500 high-income buyers nationwide. Lexus was also the #1 most recommended brand of luxury consumers, and quality was the key factor.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...13/003900.html
11-10-07, 08:01 PM
#43
Lexus Test Driver
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Luxury Institute surveys aside, IMO the general public in this country thinks the following ranking of "consumer"/"attainable" luxury brands (give or take one to two ranks for each brand):
Porsche / M-B
BMW
Lexus (USA)
Jaguar
Land Rover
Cadillac
Audi (much higher elsewhere in the world)
Infiniti
Volvo
Acura
SAAB
Lincoln
VW (in comparison to mass market brands like Toyota, Honda, etc.)
Porsche / M-B
BMW
Lexus (USA)
Jaguar
Land Rover
Cadillac
Audi (much higher elsewhere in the world)
Infiniti
Volvo
Acura
SAAB
Lincoln
VW (in comparison to mass market brands like Toyota, Honda, etc.)
11-11-07, 05:59 AM
#44
The fact that this conversation pops up on forums practically on a monthly basis tells me that, no, Lexus is not at the same level as BMW and MB. They may be in sales, but not in prestige.
The leaders in defining what the segment is all about will always be BMW and MB. They set the standard for the rest to follow. And follow is pretty much what Lexus has always done from its inception. The difference being that Lexus tries to take an idea from the Germans and then execute it as well as possible resulting in a better built car.
The leaders in defining what the segment is all about will always be BMW and MB. They set the standard for the rest to follow. And follow is pretty much what Lexus has always done from its inception. The difference being that Lexus tries to take an idea from the Germans and then execute it as well as possible resulting in a better built car.