Okay, MMarshall and I ask your automotive questions.... again
11-15-07, 12:10 PM
#16
Pole Position
And aftermarket rims can be either "sporty" or "luxury" depending on the style of the rim. Many mesh-style rims look rather luxurious, while a thick 5-spoke rim typically is considered "sporty". So in regards to wheels, it's all a matter of perspective.
Electronic gizmos are certainly considered a luxurious feature, always have been. Power seats and power outside mirrors in the 70s was a luxurious feature, for obvious reasons. Automation and power features in a car will always be considered "luxury", as well it should be.
I think your mixing and matching elements that are not all the same.
.......Cars like the Lexus LS460 of today may be more reliable and have library-quiet noise levels, killer stereos, and nice wood trim, but they still lack the big, HEAVY feel, interior space, and ultra-smooth ride of the luxury cars I grew up with....and many of the parts and hardware that used to be durable metal is now mostly plastic.
Many people have graduated from wanting to drive around in big, gas-guzzling boats that take up the entire lane, that float over the highway and that roll over at the drop of a dime. Call it advancement, and we're better for it.
But you can still get your American Luxury in a Lincoln or a Caddy or a Buick...and even those cars ride much better now, and some have outstanding gas mileage given their size.
11-15-07, 01:52 PM
#17
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True.....and a lot of older guys like me are not into that kind of stuff. We like our cars luxurious (and sometimes sporty) but simple. For one thing, we learned, years ago, to DRIVE, not sit back on our ***es and let electronics do everything........things like Infiniti's Lane Change camera, Mercedes' Radar-Adapting Cruise Control, Brake Assist that slams the ABS on full-force (when you may not want full-force), etc....
I am not an older guy yet (somewhere in the middle), but I agree with you completely about keeping it simple. It feels like the progress in the area of electronics is driving the need to shove all kinds of unnecessary stuff into cars. Some safety features, such as airbags, ABS, txn and stability control I am all for. Navigation systems and I-drive and other electronic gimmickry I am not too crazy about.
In the latest C&D article Pat Bedard wrote about Jaguar XJR with adaptive cruise control that slammed the brakes on him as he was driving in the left lane on the freeway, when it scanned ahead and detected a slow moving semi in the right lane of the freeway that was curving to the left (making it appear to the scanner that the semi was in the car's path). No thanks!
11-15-07, 02:20 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
+1
I am not an older guy yet (somewhere in the middle), but I agree with you completely about keeping it simple. It feels like the progress in the area of electronics is driving the need to shove all kinds of unnecessary stuff into cars. Some safety features, such as airbags, ABS, txn and stability control I am all for. Navigation systems and I-drive and other electronic gimmickry I am not too crazy about.
In the latest C&D article Pat Bedard wrote about Jaguar XJR with adaptive cruise control that slammed the brakes on him as he was driving in the left lane on the freeway, when it scanned ahead and detected a slow moving semi in the right lane of the freeway that was curving to the left (making it appear to the scanner that the semi was in the car's path). No thanks!
I am not an older guy yet (somewhere in the middle), but I agree with you completely about keeping it simple. It feels like the progress in the area of electronics is driving the need to shove all kinds of unnecessary stuff into cars. Some safety features, such as airbags, ABS, txn and stability control I am all for. Navigation systems and I-drive and other electronic gimmickry I am not too crazy about.
In the latest C&D article Pat Bedard wrote about Jaguar XJR with adaptive cruise control that slammed the brakes on him as he was driving in the left lane on the freeway, when it scanned ahead and detected a slow moving semi in the right lane of the freeway that was curving to the left (making it appear to the scanner that the semi was in the car's path). No thanks!
That story about the Jag's adaptive cruise control, as you note, was a perfect example of what I was talking about...and definitely one of Pat's better columns.
11-15-07, 02:29 PM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Some of what you described above is considered "sporty" not "luxury". If you want your car to go faster and handle better, that's choosing sporty over luxury.
And aftermarket rims can be either "sporty" or "luxury" depending on the style of the rim. Many mesh-style rims look rather luxurious, while a thick 5-spoke rim typically is considered "sporty". So in regards to wheels, it's all a matter of perspective.
Electronic gizmos are certainly considered a luxurious feature, always have been. Power seats and power outside mirrors in the 70s was a luxurious feature, for obvious reasons. Automation and power features in a car will always be considered "luxury", as well it should be.
I think your mixing and matching elements that are not all the same.
And aftermarket rims can be either "sporty" or "luxury" depending on the style of the rim. Many mesh-style rims look rather luxurious, while a thick 5-spoke rim typically is considered "sporty". So in regards to wheels, it's all a matter of perspective.
Electronic gizmos are certainly considered a luxurious feature, always have been. Power seats and power outside mirrors in the 70s was a luxurious feature, for obvious reasons. Automation and power features in a car will always be considered "luxury", as well it should be.
I think your mixing and matching elements that are not all the same.
My point, though, was that many of what are considered "luxury" cars today actually have "sport" suspensions, underpinnings, wheels, and tires........or what would have been considered "sport" just a few years ago.
Many people have graduated from wanting to drive around in big, gas-guzzling boats that take up the entire lane, that float over the highway and that roll over at the drop of a dime. Call it advancement, and we're better for it.
But you can still get your American Luxury in a Lincoln or a Caddy or a Buick...and even those cars ride much better now, and some have outstanding gas mileage given their size.
But you can still get your American Luxury in a Lincoln or a Caddy or a Buick...and even those cars ride much better now, and some have outstanding gas mileage given their size.
You're also correct that today's Town Cars and Buick Lucernes are more efficient than those of 30-40 years ago, get better mileage, and handle better, but don't kid yourself.........while they are smooth by today's standards, they do NOT ride as cushy as their forefathers did. The newer, firmer tires/suspension and lighter weights take their toll in ride smoothness. Take it from a guy who knows....I grew up with those cars (and 60's vintage muscle cars, of course)
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-15-07 at 02:33 PM.
11-15-07, 02:53 PM
#20
Pole Position
I understand the point you're making, Kevin, but, rest assured, I know the difference between "sport" and "luxury", although the line between the two today is becoming somewhat blurred.
My point, though, was that many of what are considered "luxury" cars today actually have "sport" suspensions, underpinnings, wheels, and tires........or what would have been considered "sport" just a few years ago.
My point, though, was that many of what are considered "luxury" cars today actually have "sport" suspensions, underpinnings, wheels, and tires........or what would have been considered "sport" just a few years ago.
I don't necessarily agree that it is advancement. IMO, there is still a place for luxo-boulevard cruisers, although you are correct that their sheer size would take up an inordinate amount of road space.....some of them, like 70's vintage Lincolns, were up to 21 ft. long, 80 inches wide, and well over 5000 lbs.
You're also correct that today's Town Cars and Buick Lucernes are more efficient than those of 30-40 years ago, get better mileage, and handle better, but don't kid yourself.........while they are smooth by today's standards, they do NOT ride as cushy as their forefathers did. The newer, firmer tires/suspension and lighter weights take their toll in ride smoothness. Take it from a guy who knows....I grew up with those cars (and 60's vintage muscle cars, of course)
But I have to say, those big luxo-cruisers from the 60s and 70s were SO big with suspensions SO soft that they were damn near unsafe on the road. Emergency stops and maneuvers were quite dangerous in those tanks.
11-15-07, 03:27 PM
#22
Pole Position
So, yes, the high-end manufacturers are in a race for HP and stiffer suspension settings (much to the enthusiast benefit)...but rest assured, they're not abandoning their core audiences who want cushy rides and luxurious interiors. But I will say having been in a new GS460, the ride was pretty stiff for the "standard" suspension (and the interior sorta cramped). So I do understand Marshall's point. But if someone wants a cushier ride and more space, there's plenty more offerings in the $50k-60k segment that will fill that niche. Caddy's DTS rides pretty damn well and has loads of space. I would prefer not to see 20-30 cars competing on comfort and max space...we don't need that many luxo-boats in the world in 2007.
In the end, I'm just glad they're giving the consumer a choice. I'm glad the high-end manufacturers are competing on both ends of the spectrum, luxury AND sport.
11-15-07, 03:35 PM
#23
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Lexus has given us the OPTION to do this. You can still get those cushy 17s (and sometimes 16s) on Lexuses, Mercedes and BMWs.
So, yes, the high-end manufacturers are in a race for HP and stiffer suspension settings (much to the enthusiast benefit)...but rest assured, they're not abandoning their core audiences who want cushy rides and luxurious interiors. But I will say having been in a new GS460, the ride was pretty stiff for the "standard" suspension (and the interior sorta cramped). So I do understand Marshall's point. But if someone wants a cushier ride and more space, there's plenty more offerings in the $50k-60k segment that will fill that niche. Caddy's DTS rides pretty damn well and has loads of space. I would prefer not to see 20-30 cars competing on comfort and max space...we don't need that many luxo-boats in the world in 2007.
In the end, I'm just glad they're giving the consumer a choice. I'm glad the high-end manufacturers are competing on both ends of the spectrum, luxury AND sport.
So, yes, the high-end manufacturers are in a race for HP and stiffer suspension settings (much to the enthusiast benefit)...but rest assured, they're not abandoning their core audiences who want cushy rides and luxurious interiors. But I will say having been in a new GS460, the ride was pretty stiff for the "standard" suspension (and the interior sorta cramped). So I do understand Marshall's point. But if someone wants a cushier ride and more space, there's plenty more offerings in the $50k-60k segment that will fill that niche. Caddy's DTS rides pretty damn well and has loads of space. I would prefer not to see 20-30 cars competing on comfort and max space...we don't need that many luxo-boats in the world in 2007.
In the end, I'm just glad they're giving the consumer a choice. I'm glad the high-end manufacturers are competing on both ends of the spectrum, luxury AND sport.
So luxury has now changed where "cushy", the old Lacs and Lincolns, the old Lexus, old nearly everyone is looked down upon. Just read the internet
"Car and Driver said the car handles bad"
"It handles like a pig, it sucks"
"Only old people would drive that"
etc etc
Then it seems every ad nearly shows cars
-drifting
-racing
-doing figure 8s
etc etc
Luxury is now very sporty. We have Bentely special editions and Red labels. Maybach has a S model!! (who is going to take a car that long to the track)
Luxury and Sport are being closer and closer together and if you don't get sporty, it might hurt you.
11-15-07, 04:00 PM
#24
to me rel luxury is the older s classes, the older jag xj's, the caddilac devilles, and the lexus ls. those are true luxury cars to me. now a days, a car that is basiclly run by compters doesnt appeal to me, all i want in my car is some nice leather, some nice wood, a good engine, good fit and finish, and the name to back it up, reliable or not
11-15-07, 05:06 PM
#25
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mmarshall, I was a sports car kinda guy until I got to NYC and aged about 100 years overnight. I now appreciate the pillowy soft suspension of the large, tank-like 300SE, and especially so when I drive over and through pothole after pothole.
Cars that excel at luxury, cars that excel at sport, and cars that combine the two are all good in my book.
I now appreciate the pillowy soft suspension of the large, tank-like 300SE, and especially so when I drive over and through pothole after pothole.Cars that excel at luxury, cars that excel at sport, and cars that combine the two are all good in my book.
11-15-07, 05:54 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
mmarshall, I was a sports car kinda guy until I got to NYC and aged about 100 years overnight. I now appreciate the pillowy soft suspension of the large, tank-like 300SE, and especially so when I drive over and through pothole after pothole.
Cars that excel at luxury, cars that excel at sport, and cars that combine the two are all good in my book.
I now appreciate the pillowy soft suspension of the large, tank-like 300SE, and especially so when I drive over and through pothole after pothole.Cars that excel at luxury, cars that excel at sport, and cars that combine the two are all good in my book.
11-15-07, 06:58 PM
#27
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A 300SE is a non-AMG S-Class sedan. Or do you mean a W221 non-AMG S-Class sedan? We have a W220 non-AMG S-Class sedan, which also has a pillowy-type suspension. I haven't gotten a chance to drive or ride in a W221 yet, though.
11-15-07, 07:39 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
No, I meant the S550 or S600. Consumer Reports calls it the best ride quality they have ever tested, though my vote would go to the late 60's-late 70's Lincoln Continental (I got to drive some when my dad worked for the old Philco-Ford Division). You could thread a needle in that car driving over cobblestones.
11-16-07, 07:11 AM
#30
Guest
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+1
I am not an older guy yet (somewhere in the middle), but I agree with you completely about keeping it simple. It feels like the progress in the area of electronics is driving the need to shove all kinds of unnecessary stuff into cars. Some safety features, such as airbags, ABS, txn and stability control I am all for. Navigation systems and I-drive and other electronic gimmickry I am not too crazy about.
In the latest C&D article Pat Bedard wrote about Jaguar XJR with adaptive cruise control that slammed the brakes on him as he was driving in the left lane on the freeway, when it scanned ahead and detected a slow moving semi in the right lane of the freeway that was curving to the left (making it appear to the scanner that the semi was in the car's path). No thanks!
I am not an older guy yet (somewhere in the middle), but I agree with you completely about keeping it simple. It feels like the progress in the area of electronics is driving the need to shove all kinds of unnecessary stuff into cars. Some safety features, such as airbags, ABS, txn and stability control I am all for. Navigation systems and I-drive and other electronic gimmickry I am not too crazy about.
In the latest C&D article Pat Bedard wrote about Jaguar XJR with adaptive cruise control that slammed the brakes on him as he was driving in the left lane on the freeway, when it scanned ahead and detected a slow moving semi in the right lane of the freeway that was curving to the left (making it appear to the scanner that the semi was in the car's path). No thanks!
Luxury is about technology and cars are now crammed with it and honestly (while I am more a purist) it is easy to get used to it for the most part.