Article: Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?
11-17-07, 10:42 AM
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Article: Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?
BusinessWeek
Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?
That's what Chrysler, Daimler, and BMW seem to think. They're all using GM's hybrid technology for their new trucks and SUVs
by David Kiley
In the next 24 months, General Motors (GM), Chrysler, Daimler (DAI) and BMW (BMWG) will collectively bring out at least nine hybrid trucks and sport-utility vehicles, including the Chevrolet Tahoe and Chrysler's Aspen and Dodge Durango, which are being unveiled this week at the Los Angeles Auto Show. But for the conditions of a joint technology agreement among the companies, each vehicle might have a badge on its side-panel that says "GM Inside."
That's right, GM, once a laggard in fuel efficiency technology, is making its nemesis Toyota (TM)—the undisputed image leader in fuel-efficient transportation—take notice by starting a new and legitimate rivalry for the next generation of hybrid trucks and SUVs, as well as plug-in vehicles. Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW all opted in 2005 to adopt GM's hybrid technology in a four-company venture, rather than to license Toyota's hybrid hardware.
Hybrid Trucks Ready to Roll
GM launched the Chevy Tahoe hybrid last month, while the rest of the companies are rolling their hybrids out in 2008 and 2009. The Durango and Aspen hybrids are expected to increase fuel efficiency by 20% to 25% over their gas-only counterparts, or about 18 city/23 highway. The SUVs will come with 5.7-liter HEMI V-8 engines with Multi-Displacement System (MDS), also known as "cylinder deactivation," as well as a feature that allows the engine to stop at traffic lights. That means, under highway cruising conditions, only four cylinders will push the SUV down the road unless it's packing a huge load. The improvement in city driving fuel economy, though, is 40% over the gas-only version.
Mercedes is using the same two-mode, hybrid transmission technology in the ML450 Hybrid, set to launch in 2009. BMW showed its first vehicle utilizing the technology from the venture in the X6 ActiveHybrid concept vehicle it showed last September at the Frankfurt Auto Show. The X6, scheduled to go on sale in the fourth quarter of 2009, can be driven on electric power only, on the combustion engine alone, or with a combination of both power sources.
It may surprise many consumers that companies as historically finicky and image-conscious as Mercedes-Benz and BMW would opt for GM's hybrid technology over Toyota's. After all, an internal study by GM last year showed that 70% of the consumers the automaker polled described GM as "part of the problem" when it comes to climate change and the impact of automobiles on the environment, whereas 70% of the same group described Toyota as "part of the solution."
GM's Solution Packs More Power
GM began its hybrid technology program in the shadow of Toyota. The Japanese automaker introduced the Prius hybrid in 1998 in the face of GM skepticism that there was a market for such a vehicle, or that it was the right sort of vehicle to carry a hybrid system. GM was developing a system for diesel-electric hybrid city buses with technology it planned to leverage into pickup trucks and SUVs. Toyota was clearly successful in terms of tapping into consumer desires and in developing a green halo that serves it well today. "There is no question that we [GM] underestimated the marketing power of the technology," says Larry Burns, GM's executive vice-president for research and development.
However, Toyota's hybrid system does not work well for towing or pulling heavy loads associated with pickups and SUVs. That's why Toyota has yet to introduce a hybrid version of its Tundra pickup (BusinessWeek, 1/30/07), or of SUVs such as the Sequoia and the Land Cruiser. Because Chrysler, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz were interested in creating hybrid versions of its SUVs, it turned to GM's technology. Chrysler executives estimate the venture with GM saved it at least six to nine months of replicating work that GM had already done. "The GM technology was very sound and very adaptable to BMW's desire for high-performance in the vehicles we develop," says Wolfgang Epple, who led BMW's involvement in the venture.
The advantage of GM's so-called two-mode system, points out GM's Larry Nitz, who has headed the automaker's venture with the other three companies, is that the engine speed remains constant when the gears of the vehicle are changing. This is extremely important in the performance of a pickup or SUV when it is carrying loads or going uphill. The power is sent to the wheels mechanically through a series of clutches and gears. In a conventional hybrid, such as Toyota's, power is sent to the wheels electrically, which is less effective for bigger vehicles.
Greening GM's Image
GM may not be known yet for "green" vehicles. But it is on a mission to change that. David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., says that automakers developing hybrid or electric vehicles invariably stumble over patents or intellectual property held by either Toyota or GM.
It was GM, after all, that developed the EV-1 electric vehicle, though it suffered a tremendous public-relations backlash when it killed the vehicle, bought back all the models it had already sold and then destroyed them. Nevertheless, says Cole, "In a few years GM will probably be earning more than a half-billion a year from other car companies licensing its technology, a big portion of which will be related to hybrids and plug-ins."
Will Truck Drivers Care?
The big question, of course, is whether buyers of pickups and SUVs will buy the more expensive hybrid versions of these vehicles at anything like the rate at which car buyers have bought Toyota's hybrids. The marketplace is not a laboratory. Toyota has sold more than one million hybrid vehicles since 1998, mostly Prius sedans. A Prius today costs about $23,500, according to Edmunds.com, and gets 46 mpg. Compare that with a comparable four-cylinder Camry costing around $23,000, which gets 21/31 mpg. The fuel economy numbers on the Prius are compelling and consumers who buy the car, which has a unique design and a model name synonymous with hybrids, clearly enjoy having their neighbors and peers know they bought a hybrid.
The truck and SUV market is different for hybrids. Ford (F) has had difficulty selling its Escape hybrid (BusinessWeek, 12/27/05)>, despite its fuel economy of 32 mpg (front-wheel drive), compared with 18/24 mpg (six cylinder) for the regular gas version. GM's Tahoe gets 21/22 mpg, about 25% higher than the gas version, but still low for a car buyer looking to make a big move in fuel economy. The Tahoe Hybrid price is not yet set, but the arithmetic had better be compelling to impress whatever green-minded pickup and SUV buyers are out there.
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Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?
That's what Chrysler, Daimler, and BMW seem to think. They're all using GM's hybrid technology for their new trucks and SUVs
by David Kiley
In the next 24 months, General Motors (GM), Chrysler, Daimler (DAI) and BMW (BMWG) will collectively bring out at least nine hybrid trucks and sport-utility vehicles, including the Chevrolet Tahoe and Chrysler's Aspen and Dodge Durango, which are being unveiled this week at the Los Angeles Auto Show. But for the conditions of a joint technology agreement among the companies, each vehicle might have a badge on its side-panel that says "GM Inside."
That's right, GM, once a laggard in fuel efficiency technology, is making its nemesis Toyota (TM)—the undisputed image leader in fuel-efficient transportation—take notice by starting a new and legitimate rivalry for the next generation of hybrid trucks and SUVs, as well as plug-in vehicles. Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW all opted in 2005 to adopt GM's hybrid technology in a four-company venture, rather than to license Toyota's hybrid hardware.
Hybrid Trucks Ready to Roll
GM launched the Chevy Tahoe hybrid last month, while the rest of the companies are rolling their hybrids out in 2008 and 2009. The Durango and Aspen hybrids are expected to increase fuel efficiency by 20% to 25% over their gas-only counterparts, or about 18 city/23 highway. The SUVs will come with 5.7-liter HEMI V-8 engines with Multi-Displacement System (MDS), also known as "cylinder deactivation," as well as a feature that allows the engine to stop at traffic lights. That means, under highway cruising conditions, only four cylinders will push the SUV down the road unless it's packing a huge load. The improvement in city driving fuel economy, though, is 40% over the gas-only version.
Mercedes is using the same two-mode, hybrid transmission technology in the ML450 Hybrid, set to launch in 2009. BMW showed its first vehicle utilizing the technology from the venture in the X6 ActiveHybrid concept vehicle it showed last September at the Frankfurt Auto Show. The X6, scheduled to go on sale in the fourth quarter of 2009, can be driven on electric power only, on the combustion engine alone, or with a combination of both power sources.
It may surprise many consumers that companies as historically finicky and image-conscious as Mercedes-Benz and BMW would opt for GM's hybrid technology over Toyota's. After all, an internal study by GM last year showed that 70% of the consumers the automaker polled described GM as "part of the problem" when it comes to climate change and the impact of automobiles on the environment, whereas 70% of the same group described Toyota as "part of the solution."
GM's Solution Packs More Power
GM began its hybrid technology program in the shadow of Toyota. The Japanese automaker introduced the Prius hybrid in 1998 in the face of GM skepticism that there was a market for such a vehicle, or that it was the right sort of vehicle to carry a hybrid system. GM was developing a system for diesel-electric hybrid city buses with technology it planned to leverage into pickup trucks and SUVs. Toyota was clearly successful in terms of tapping into consumer desires and in developing a green halo that serves it well today. "There is no question that we [GM] underestimated the marketing power of the technology," says Larry Burns, GM's executive vice-president for research and development.
However, Toyota's hybrid system does not work well for towing or pulling heavy loads associated with pickups and SUVs. That's why Toyota has yet to introduce a hybrid version of its Tundra pickup (BusinessWeek, 1/30/07), or of SUVs such as the Sequoia and the Land Cruiser. Because Chrysler, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz were interested in creating hybrid versions of its SUVs, it turned to GM's technology. Chrysler executives estimate the venture with GM saved it at least six to nine months of replicating work that GM had already done. "The GM technology was very sound and very adaptable to BMW's desire for high-performance in the vehicles we develop," says Wolfgang Epple, who led BMW's involvement in the venture.
The advantage of GM's so-called two-mode system, points out GM's Larry Nitz, who has headed the automaker's venture with the other three companies, is that the engine speed remains constant when the gears of the vehicle are changing. This is extremely important in the performance of a pickup or SUV when it is carrying loads or going uphill. The power is sent to the wheels mechanically through a series of clutches and gears. In a conventional hybrid, such as Toyota's, power is sent to the wheels electrically, which is less effective for bigger vehicles.
Greening GM's Image
GM may not be known yet for "green" vehicles. But it is on a mission to change that. David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., says that automakers developing hybrid or electric vehicles invariably stumble over patents or intellectual property held by either Toyota or GM.
It was GM, after all, that developed the EV-1 electric vehicle, though it suffered a tremendous public-relations backlash when it killed the vehicle, bought back all the models it had already sold and then destroyed them. Nevertheless, says Cole, "In a few years GM will probably be earning more than a half-billion a year from other car companies licensing its technology, a big portion of which will be related to hybrids and plug-ins."
Will Truck Drivers Care?
The big question, of course, is whether buyers of pickups and SUVs will buy the more expensive hybrid versions of these vehicles at anything like the rate at which car buyers have bought Toyota's hybrids. The marketplace is not a laboratory. Toyota has sold more than one million hybrid vehicles since 1998, mostly Prius sedans. A Prius today costs about $23,500, according to Edmunds.com, and gets 46 mpg. Compare that with a comparable four-cylinder Camry costing around $23,000, which gets 21/31 mpg. The fuel economy numbers on the Prius are compelling and consumers who buy the car, which has a unique design and a model name synonymous with hybrids, clearly enjoy having their neighbors and peers know they bought a hybrid.
The truck and SUV market is different for hybrids. Ford (F) has had difficulty selling its Escape hybrid (BusinessWeek, 12/27/05)>, despite its fuel economy of 32 mpg (front-wheel drive), compared with 18/24 mpg (six cylinder) for the regular gas version. GM's Tahoe gets 21/22 mpg, about 25% higher than the gas version, but still low for a car buyer looking to make a big move in fuel economy. The Tahoe Hybrid price is not yet set, but the arithmetic had better be compelling to impress whatever green-minded pickup and SUV buyers are out there.
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11-17-07, 10:54 AM
#2
It wouldn't surprise me if for now GM had a one up on Toyota's hybrid technology. Nickel Metal Hydride has been around for a while now, and while Toyota has changed the technology a little, it has largely been the same for a few years now in various different applications.
That considered, Toyota is just a few months away from bring lithium ion batteries to the mass market which promises more space, power, and life. BMW is also preparing their hydrogen hybrid line which will be interesting.
"hybridization" is really a one up thing, and Toyota's technology has been the same for a while now, with the next phase just around the corner. GM's new technology is here now, so they should be a bit better than Toyota's.
That considered, Toyota is just a few months away from bring lithium ion batteries to the mass market which promises more space, power, and life. BMW is also preparing their hydrogen hybrid line which will be interesting.
"hybridization" is really a one up thing, and Toyota's technology has been the same for a while now, with the next phase just around the corner. GM's new technology is here now, so they should be a bit better than Toyota's.
11-17-07, 01:05 PM
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If I had to ride around in a Mercedes with a cheesy badge slapped on it that said "GM Inside", I think I'd rather walk.
11-17-07, 03:34 PM
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Yes, these "hybrids" from GM aren't even FULL hybrids. A full hybrid must be capable of running on battery power alone.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
11-17-07, 03:52 PM
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Yes, these "hybrids" from GM aren't even FULL hybrids. A full hybrid must be capable of running on battery power alone.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
Also, they keep putting out these press releases that say things like "25% more fuel efficient", yet fail to leave out the actual mpg in most of them.
I'm really sick and tired of GM's all talk and no action. Put out your damn hybrids already with real numbers to back them up or say nothing. They are clearly failing against Toyota yet will jump at every opportunity possible to praise their yet unseen "technology" that is supposedly better than what Toyota has already brought to the table. It's time for them to either put up or shut up, IMO.
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11-17-07, 03:56 PM
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Yes, these "hybrids" from GM aren't even FULL hybrids. A full hybrid must be capable of running on battery power alone.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
These big hybrid trucks and SUV's will never realize the success of a vehicle like the Prius unless they are like 50% or more efficent than the regular models. These things are only averaging 20 MPG's which people don't relate to "hybrid" levels.
Give me an Escalade that gets 30 MPG highway and then we'll talk.
hybrid does not have to be running on on battery alone
thats called a one-mode hybrid
what GM/Daimler/BMW made is called a two-mode hybrid and it is more advanced for heavier duty vehicles
also does toyota have cylinder deactivation in its current lineup?
11-17-07, 04:15 PM
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thats not the definition of hybrid
hybrid does not have to be running on on battery alone
thats called a one-mode hybrid
what GM/Daimler/BMW made is called a two-mode hybrid and it is more advanced for heavier duty vehicles
also does toyota have cylinder deactivation in its current lineup?
hybrid does not have to be running on on battery alone
thats called a one-mode hybrid
what GM/Daimler/BMW made is called a two-mode hybrid and it is more advanced for heavier duty vehicles
also does toyota have cylinder deactivation in its current lineup?
Please re-read m post.
I never defined what a "hybrid" is. Nor did I say that all hybrids have to run on battery alone. That is why I made the distinction between FULL hybrids and those that are only "mild" hybrids. FULL hybrids are classified as those that are capable of driving with battery power only (low speeds). A mild hybrid is always running the gas engine but has an electric motor kick in for better power and/or efficiency.
A Prius is a full hybrid, the killed off Accord hybrid was a mild hybrid for example. The Accord's electic motor was designed to add power without taking away gas mileage much like Lexus hybrids.
11-17-07, 04:21 PM
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Exactly.
Also, they keep putting out these press releases that say things like "25% more fuel efficient", yet fail to leave out the actual mpg in most of them.
I'm really sick and tired of GM's all talk and no action. Put out your damn hybrids already with real numbers to back them up or say nothing. They are clearly failing against Toyota yet will jump at every opportunity possible to praise their yet unseen "technology" that is supposedly better than what Toyota has already brought to the table. It's time for them to either put up or shut up, IMO.
Also, they keep putting out these press releases that say things like "25% more fuel efficient", yet fail to leave out the actual mpg in most of them.
I'm really sick and tired of GM's all talk and no action. Put out your damn hybrids already with real numbers to back them up or say nothing. They are clearly failing against Toyota yet will jump at every opportunity possible to praise their yet unseen "technology" that is supposedly better than what Toyota has already brought to the table. It's time for them to either put up or shut up, IMO.
It's really a pathetic attempt by GM to get people to think they are right there with Toyota and Honda in offering efficient vehicles.
11-17-07, 04:45 PM
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If we are going to nitpick on the GM badges, well how about the cars with giant 6000 font on the trunk lids because no one can figure out what the hell kind of car it is.
I for one am glad GM is trying at least to come up with hybrids and they did bring the EV1 to us way before anyone else.
Do I think GM will beat Toyota in this tech? Nope.
I for one am glad GM is trying at least to come up with hybrids and they did bring the EV1 to us way before anyone else.
Do I think GM will beat Toyota in this tech? Nope.
11-17-07, 07:41 PM
#12
However, Toyota's hybrid system does not work well for towing or pulling heavy loads associated with pickups and SUVs. That's why Toyota has yet to introduce a hybrid version of its Tundra pickup (BusinessWeek, 1/30/07), or of SUVs such as the Sequoia and the Land Cruiser.
hmmm I'm trying to think of a reason why Toyota hasn't come out with a Tundra hybrid
Oh thats right because no one gives a damn about a 20 mpg hybrid truck
11-17-07, 09:05 PM
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Sorry but that's a ridiculous conclusion. Many who drive trucks, for example those involved in construction, drive a LOT of miles, often in stop and go or non-highway roads, and an increase of 10, 20 or more percent in fuel economy can mean a huge difference in company profitability.
11-18-07, 10:58 AM
#14
Sorry but that's a ridiculous conclusion. Many who drive trucks, for example those involved in construction, drive a LOT of miles, often in stop and go or non-highway roads, and an increase of 10, 20 or more percent in fuel economy can mean a huge difference in company profitability.
I cant wait for these new full hybrids (not their craptastic mild hybrids) to hit the road so customers can get their hads on them.
I doubt they will be better than Toyota hybrids but lets see. I think it is quite interesting that GM did not want to compete with Prius and Camry hybrid, rather choose big trucks where Toyota does not have an hybrid (although HH is quite an large 7 seat vehicle).
p.s. GM hybrid tech doesnt work with towing, same as Toyota's - thats why they left V8 in it.
11-18-07, 11:59 AM
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That's a good point, so maybe the economic argument isn't there anyway, and only a 'tree hugging' construction firm (all 2 of them, lol) will find these trucks appealing.
Actually, people are so irrational when it comes to gas prices and gas consumption they may well buy this even if it ends up costing them more overall.
Actually, people are so irrational when it comes to gas prices and gas consumption they may well buy this even if it ends up costing them more overall.