rosskoss

And in that same vein, light overboosted steering with minimal feel and little to no feedback isn't my cup of tea. "Excessive engine breaking"? That's a new one. Bad ergonomics is highly subjective. It may not be what you're used to or what you grew up driving but doesn't mean it's bad.

You really are grasping at straws here and are basically twisting the argument to fit your beliefs.

Shawnmack

I'm going to stay true to the Japanese. The Japanese made the Germans better at building cars. Look back at 1990 when the TT ZX came out it out performed any German besides Porshe. You can look back in 98 when the 2GS came out it made the 5 look outdated after winning the 97 MT ICOY.
I think the Japanese started focusing more on their SUV's. Until recently the Germans couldn't build a Suv. The Japanese can build luxury sports sedans as Infiniti are starting to build Cars that are outperforming BMW. Lexus is coming out with the F series. Remember Lexus, Infiniti and Acura has only been in the Game not even 20 years. The Germans has took notice that's why the 335i has TT 5 years ago BMW said that Turbo's and Superchargers are a Cheap way to get to get power. Now look what they are using for their cars now.

gengar

Let's not forget that Wiedeking studied Toyota's quality and manufacturing processes and basically cloned them for Porsche. That is the biggest factor in Porsche's turnaround from the mid-90s. Who knows where Porsche would be without that.

Ramon

I disagree... I own German, Japanese and American cars.

Driving feel is what I disagree with you most. I feel German cars drive a lot better than Japanese cars and WAY better than American cars. I don't feel that they're uncomfortable, some are of course, but so are some American and Japanese cars as well. The steering isn't heavy, it's just right.

I'll agree with you on ergonomics to a certain extent. German cars generally don't have the ergonomics than Japanese cars do, though Audi is close and MB is getting better.

-J-P-L-

Never said it was bad. Throughout this thread I have only stated my opinions and what I find appealing. No one needs to agree. However, the millions of people buying japanese cars (they sell way more than german cars) must like how they feel and drive.

Like I said, it is simply my opinion that I'm sharing. I'm not twisting anything.
Have you driven a Porsche Cayenne, for example? It comes to a quick hault when you let off the gas as if you just it the breaks. I'd say that is excessive engine breaking. It's a horrible feeling. The Cayenne is probably one of the worst vehicles I've ever driven, sadly. I was hoping I'd love it.

Ramon

Most people who buy car's do them to get from point A to B, and do it as cheaply and reliably as possible. Go take a look at sports based vehicles, where people actually care about driving dynamics and see if the Japanese are still leading the Germans. The 3 series outsells the 2IS by a good margin and the 5 series puts the GS to shame in terms of sales.

LexFather

You have only named 2 classes mahn.
From a luxury perspective, its not even close (sales). Lexus is the only viable luxury threat to the big 3 from Germany, which sell over 1 mill a year. Lexus sold over 400,0000 worldwide in comparison. Hell throw Acura and Infiniti and you're still not at 1 million sales for the Japanese.

BUT the line is blurred as Lexus ONLY sells luxury vehicles and has only 1 4 cylider (the IS 220d diesel). Audi, BMW, Benz all sell vehicles that compete with Toyota. Lexus sales are pretty incredible considering they have a very limited lineup in comparison to the Germans (for instance there are 40 different versions of the 3 overseas!!!!)

Now in America, Lexus has outsold EVERYONE for the past 8 years now. So in America, Lexus IS the Luxury brand of choice. Lexus is also the #1 selling luxury brand in Russia and recently beat Benz to be #1 in China.

BMW has stated last month they plan to sell 2 million cars the next 10 years!!

-J-P-L-

And you bought an IS350 instead of the 3-series. May I ask why if you like BMW's more?

Ramon

I don't like BMW's more, and I never said anything of the sort... There are two reasons why I am driving an IS350 instead of a 3 series.

1) Driving dynamics was not my primary concern when purchasing my vehicle, though it was important, I wanted more then just a sporty vehicle. The IS offered "enough" of a sproty feel for me while also meeting my other needs/wants. Had driving dynamics been my only factor, then I'd likely be driving a 3 series.

2) There was no such thing as a 335i in September 2005

Still confused?

OC 335d

Senior citizen = Weaklings (not all but most).

LexFather

Fellas I just want to add is it really one is better than the other? As I am getting older, I find it harder and harder to find faults with these luxury cars outside of personal things like styling and image (even image though is not as subjective)...

I find that each company has their interpretation of
luxury sedan
sports sedan/coupes
convertibles
super sedans
super cars (SLR for instance, or Z8)
SUVs..
etc etc

Audi has their way, Benz has theirs, BMW has their way and Lexus has their way. We have seen that they all take cues and ideas from one another as well as having bold interpretations of what that "brand" is about (like flagships, the A8/7/S/LS).

Ramon

Yes, I realize that. I'm referring specifically to the driving characteristics that the OP was complaining about that are infact, the main selling point of German vehicles, and it's that driving characteristic in those respective classes that allow them to sell better than their Japanese counterparts. The Japanese cars win in several other catagories. Reliability, electronics, ergonomics, but the drive goes to the Germans.

LexFather

Ramon, that is an assumption. We cannot summarize they sell better b/c of driving characteristics only, or that being the main reason. To be honest, IMO, its probably one of the last reasons.
-Let us not forget BMW has wonderful lease deals which make them HUGELY attractive. They are the best in the luxury arena.
-They also offer the highest incentives as a luxury brand.
-They also have free scheduled maintenance for 4/50k....

1. People love their 3s, 5s and E classes. They are the status quo.
2. They offer MANY more variants than Lexus does. Look at the 3
328 sedan
328 coupe
328 convert
328 AWD
335 sedan
335 coupe
335 AWD
335 convert
M3
M3 sedan
3 wagon

vs
IS 250
IS 350
IS AWD
and in 2008 IS-F.

528
535
550
M5
5 wagons
5 AWD

vs
GS 350
GS 450h limited production model
GS 460
GS AWD

I am not arguing who is better. We can possibly find fault in Lexus for not having more IS variants or having higher lease residuals.

We do know BMW has been at this game for decades while Lexus is STILL learning. The 3 has been basically THE CAR to get in this class since the 1980s..the IS was one model from 2001-2005 and has evolved to what it is today.

Ramon

Every BMW owner I know talks about the drive, every BMW review I read talks about the drive, BMW tout themselves as the "Ultimate DRIVING machine"

As much as you may like to think so, it's not mere specualtion, there is quite a bit of evidence at work here.

I'm not saying one brand is better then the other. I would never say BMW is "better" then a Lexus becuase I don't think they are better cars, I DO think the drive better and I DO think that it's their driving dynamics that make them as popular as they are... I mean, it certainly can't be the reliability or interior styling.

Shawnmack

Can you give me an Audi, BMW, or Benz that could compare to the ZX TT, or Supra back in 1993. I had a 91ZX TT and a 2000 BMW 328Ci. I loved that BMW but as far as handiling and performance it couldn't touch my Z and my Z was almost 10 years old. Like I said before Japanese automakers can make cars to compete and outperform the Germans.