My Rant on German Cars - Anyone Else Agree?
12-18-07 | 07:13 PM
#166
Guest
Posts: n/a
Every BMW owner I know talks about the drive, every BMW review I read talks about the drive, BMW tout themselves as the "Ultimate DRIVING machine"
As much as you may like to think so, it's not mere specualtion, there is quite a bit of evidence at work here.
I'm not saying one brand is better then the other. I would never say BMW is "better" then a Lexus becuase I don't think they are better cars, I DO think the drive better and I DO think that it's their driving dynamics that make them as popular as they are... I mean, it certainly can't be the reliability or interior styling.
As much as you may like to think so, it's not mere specualtion, there is quite a bit of evidence at work here.
I'm not saying one brand is better then the other. I would never say BMW is "better" then a Lexus becuase I don't think they are better cars, I DO think the drive better and I DO think that it's their driving dynamics that make them as popular as they are... I mean, it certainly can't be the reliability or interior styling.
Driving enthusiasts are but a drop in the bucket of people that buy cars, even a sportier brand like BMW.
The minority that do buy BMWs for sport, that do track them, that do race them, have helped give the brand the IMAGE that the majority that buy them could care less about.
Lexus is in the EXACT opposite boat. The vast majority of owners don't track, race, mod their cars much less than BMW owners. The minority do and love their IS/GS/SC etc. Because of this MAJORITY, the image of Lexus is staid and one of luxury. I've met owners who are shocked about the things you can do to a Lexus. Finally Lexus has listened with the IS-F. Its not that you can't turbo or mod a Lexus to be sporty, its just NO ONE really knows you can.
12-18-07 | 07:36 PM
#167
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,553
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From: San Diego, CA
WOW! What a convincing argument! So you're saying a 300HP twin turbo Z and a 320HP Twin Turbo Supra had better performance than a 193hp 328Ci? 
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
12-18-07 | 07:49 PM
#168
Guest
Posts: n/a
WOW! What a convincing argument! So you're saying a 300HP twin turbo Z and a 320HP Twin Turbo Supra had better performance than a 193hp 328Ci?
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
All I'm saying is "driving dynamics" is probably not the #1 reason people buy German cars. I agree with you thattheir driving dynamics for the most part, are better than Japanese cars.
(Steps off soapbox, grabs beer)
12-18-07 | 07:53 PM
#169
Racer
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,575
Likes: 10
From: Charlotte
That's why I can't understand why everybody and their Mamma is in all with the 335 yeah it is fast as hell but compared to the TT Supra the Supra would win in every performance Category.
IMO The Germans are ahead of the Japanese right now but the game might be a lot different in 10-15 yrs.
IMO The Germans are ahead of the Japanese right now but the game might be a lot different in 10-15 yrs.
12-18-07 | 07:53 PM
#170
Thread Starter
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,864
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
WOW! What a convincing argument! So you're saying a 300HP twin turbo Z and a 320HP Twin Turbo Supra had better performance than a 193hp 328Ci?
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
Sick, I'm really not sure what your point is, or rather who you're trying to convince. I'm not arguing any of those points. My argument is focused primarily on driving dynamics, specifically, how sporty a car is, and even more specifically, cars marketed to be in the "sports" category and you seem to be trying to open this up to a much broader subject to try and put the Japanese cars in a better light, that's fine, and you're right, there are plenty of areas where they excel in, but again, I'm not talking about those areas.
You guys seriously crack me up sometimes, someone gives the Germans some props over Japanese in a single category and for a very narrow vehicle class, and you guys are up in arms about it. Japanese cars are good and just about everything and they are the best at many things, however they are NOT the best at EVERYTHING, it's about time you guys start coming to terms with that.
Yes, german cars in general perform the best at high speed and performance oriented driving but what this thread is doing is pointing out why they lack in many basic areas. If I'm not taking an exit at 80 MPH, I'd rather be in a Toyota or Honda. That sums it up.
12-18-07 | 08:05 PM
#171
Thread Starter
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,864
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Definately true. Guys, also remember that we aren't just talking about BMW's here. We are talking all German cars. VW's, ect... Just look at a bulk of these buyers and you'll quickly realize that performance driving and dynamics are not at the top of their priorities. They buy them because of the badge or because they may love the styling or for any number of reasons.
Oh, and I can't think of many $35K german cars that would match up against a Nissan 350Z in the driving dept. Actually, anything short of a Porsche couldn't compete.
01-07-08 | 05:25 PM
#173
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,588
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Let me define the term "Engine Braking" for you guys, since some of you apparantly don't understand it. I know this is a little off-topic, but important:
Engine braking occurs when the forward motion or acceleration of the vehicle downhill or coasting on a level surface is impeded solely by the drag of the spinning drivetrain, without the use of, or need of, the brake pedal, or with just minimal use of the brakes. It usually occurs when the throttle is closed or under light throttle and the rotation speed of the engine's output shaft at the flywheel is more than the rotation speed of the drive shaft going to the drive wheels. The high vaccum and compression in the engine cylinders, under these conditions, has a noticeable tendency to counteract the increasing pull of gravity going downhill or coasting on a level surface, and the vehicle either slows down, or speeds up at a lower pace, thus saving wear on (and possible failure) of the brakes. Generally the lower the gear you are in, the stronger the effect of this engine braking you will get.....this is why it can be dangerous to coast down a long, steep hill in high gear (1 to 1 ratio ) or overdrive gears.
Other factors contribute as well, such as drag of the tires, road surface, air drag of the body design, etc...., and a major one is AWD.....AWD adds a noticeable amount of extra drag on the car, and helps with downhill engine braking even more.
This is why, on long, steep hills, you often see signs at the top, starting downhill, telling motorists to downshift, or with some heavy trucks that could run away, into first gear.
I haven't been all over the U.S., or in the Western mountains much, but one of my favorite places in the East, both for scenery, an impressive view, and a real test of engine braking, is the long, 3-mile 15% descent going west on U.S. Route 40 in southwest Pennsylvania from the top of Chestnut Ridge, or "Summit Mountain" way down to Hopwood and Uniontown at the bottom.This is a very famous and well-known hill, with impressive views, the Summit Inn at the top, and drops from 2500' to about 900' in three miles. Here are some views of it:
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8933.php
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8934.php
and an old picture:
http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIONTOWN-HILL-N...ayphotohosting
Engine braking occurs when the forward motion or acceleration of the vehicle downhill or coasting on a level surface is impeded solely by the drag of the spinning drivetrain, without the use of, or need of, the brake pedal, or with just minimal use of the brakes. It usually occurs when the throttle is closed or under light throttle and the rotation speed of the engine's output shaft at the flywheel is more than the rotation speed of the drive shaft going to the drive wheels. The high vaccum and compression in the engine cylinders, under these conditions, has a noticeable tendency to counteract the increasing pull of gravity going downhill or coasting on a level surface, and the vehicle either slows down, or speeds up at a lower pace, thus saving wear on (and possible failure) of the brakes. Generally the lower the gear you are in, the stronger the effect of this engine braking you will get.....this is why it can be dangerous to coast down a long, steep hill in high gear (1 to 1 ratio ) or overdrive gears.
Other factors contribute as well, such as drag of the tires, road surface, air drag of the body design, etc...., and a major one is AWD.....AWD adds a noticeable amount of extra drag on the car, and helps with downhill engine braking even more.
This is why, on long, steep hills, you often see signs at the top, starting downhill, telling motorists to downshift, or with some heavy trucks that could run away, into first gear.
I haven't been all over the U.S., or in the Western mountains much, but one of my favorite places in the East, both for scenery, an impressive view, and a real test of engine braking, is the long, 3-mile 15% descent going west on U.S. Route 40 in southwest Pennsylvania from the top of Chestnut Ridge, or "Summit Mountain" way down to Hopwood and Uniontown at the bottom.This is a very famous and well-known hill, with impressive views, the Summit Inn at the top, and drops from 2500' to about 900' in three miles. Here are some views of it:
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8933.php
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8934.php
and an old picture:
http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIONTOWN-HILL-N...ayphotohosting
http://www.mbcomps.com/gallery/FayetteUS40WB/DSCN0985
I have driven this road a number of times from Maryland/Virginia across the mountains to Ohio, where I have relatives. Those of you who live in Western PA....like Eric (EBruce) may be familiar with it too.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-07-08 at 05:31 PM.
01-10-08 | 08:58 AM
#174
I'm Tokyo now and I'm driving around in my friends 2008 BMW 750iL here.. got a chance to use the newer I-drive navigation(Japanese version) and I do agree with some people it is hard to use for first timer... I still had no clue how to use it
01-10-08 | 11:02 AM
#175
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,467
Likes: 0
From: SF
But I think you will get use to the I-crash. I like it now.
01-10-08 | 03:06 PM
#176
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,963
Likes: 1
From: rip current, CA
01-10-08 | 03:30 PM
#177
But I think you will get use to the I-crash. I like it now.
01-10-08 | 06:47 PM
#178
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 0
From: IL
may be the JDM version has smaller screen..? it is just hard to see... unlike the US overhere where i'm at has small road and crazy drivers I rather just ask for direction than playing with that thing... last night i drove it here from tokyo bay to yokohama i try to look at the map when i'm driving on the express way and jsut really can't tell where i;m at... i think i got cut off by at least 20 mad taxis driver and hundreds of trucks on the way here in a 750 LOL... i give up after a while...
01-10-08 | 11:48 PM
#180
Over all they are rated pretty well, but I still rather have it as high up on the dash as possible myself. The higher the better. My ultimate is when teh Nav screen is at the very top of the dash, and the AC vents are below it or on the side of it. Then the radio or AC controls below that.