My Rant on German Cars - Anyone Else Agree?
12-08-07, 09:53 PM
#16
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So anyway, I know we ended up talking a lot about driving dynamics but my bigger problem is with interior ergonomics, comfort and quality.
Does anyone like the controls in these german cars? It seems like you need to learn the "German way" to do what is usually simple functions in cars.
Power window buttons for example are often at a wrist bending angle. And you might as well pull over to change climate or radio stations with i-Drive.
In a Japenese, American, or Korean car, it takes ONE EASY push of a button to do any desired function. This way, you can focus on DRIVING.
Does anyone like the controls in these german cars? It seems like you need to learn the "German way" to do what is usually simple functions in cars.
Power window buttons for example are often at a wrist bending angle. And you might as well pull over to change climate or radio stations with i-Drive.
In a Japenese, American, or Korean car, it takes ONE EASY push of a button to do any desired function. This way, you can focus on DRIVING.
12-08-07, 11:59 PM
#17
European vehicles, as a whole, dropped sharply in quality in recent years, mostly due to electronics and hardware-related issues.....but there is some evidence that may slowly be starting to improve once again, particularly with Mercedes, which, along with Land Rover, had the most unreliable vehicles of all.
. You should see some of the Japanese (like CarGraphic magazine) review on European cars against Japanese. They will usually critique that the European interior has a very chic-classy feel where as the Japanese is very dull and not so great quality. I guess the grass is greener on the other side? Oh yeah, and thank god Mercedes is coming back. I think they started to realize that they shouldn't cut cost where the 5 senses touch. Kinda felt it getting better with the last C Class after minor change, the CLS reassured that they are doing better, and the new S-Class I think nailed it IMO.
I don't agree, however, with your negative assessment of BMW's steering feel. While there are a number of things I don't like about newer BMW's, to me (and to many others as well), there are simply no other mass-produced power-steering systems in the world that combine the road feel, steering effort, telepathic slickness, and just the overall magic that the BMW units do....at least the non-Active steering units. I-Drive may s**k, the sheet metal may s**k, the styling may s**k, the SMT gearboxes may s**k, but the steering and chassis? They simply are the BEST.
. I drove a 335i coupe a while ago and they still had that magic 
. The last SMG BMW I drove was a 645Ci...and it wasn't too bad. Not as great as Audi's DSG though. Now that was impressive.
12-09-07, 12:03 AM
#18
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So I've now been working at an Acura Dealer for about 4 months now as a temporary job. The benefit of this is that I can test drive and really get to know tons of different cars - we see all makes and models.
I'll first say that Japenese cars IMO are easily superior to all others in almost ever category. American cars actually come in 2nd. Then German and any others.
For those of you who have driven BMW's, VW's (& Audi's), Benz's, Porsche's ect. you may agree. Germans seem to purposely go against everything that is standard about ergonomics and arguably driving feel. Radio, climate, and other controls are all hard to use until I guess you are forced to get used to them.
I've seen some without an AM/FM button! How annoying. Buttons and levers are placed in areas that are awkward to use.
Then there's driving feel. How do they rate high for many?? I HATE how they drive. You know how other cars roll nicely without giving gas? In a German car, it just sits there and then is often jumpy to go really slow.
The steering is also too stiff and has a dead feel to me. Give me the feel of a Toyota or Honda any day!!
Japenese cars have everything in the right place and they have the most comfortable and pleasant driving feel.
Well, I gotta go out. Maybe more later.
I'll first say that Japenese cars IMO are easily superior to all others in almost ever category. American cars actually come in 2nd. Then German and any others.
For those of you who have driven BMW's, VW's (& Audi's), Benz's, Porsche's ect. you may agree. Germans seem to purposely go against everything that is standard about ergonomics and arguably driving feel. Radio, climate, and other controls are all hard to use until I guess you are forced to get used to them.
I've seen some without an AM/FM button! How annoying. Buttons and levers are placed in areas that are awkward to use.
Then there's driving feel. How do they rate high for many?? I HATE how they drive. You know how other cars roll nicely without giving gas? In a German car, it just sits there and then is often jumpy to go really slow.
The steering is also too stiff and has a dead feel to me. Give me the feel of a Toyota or Honda any day!!
Japenese cars have everything in the right place and they have the most comfortable and pleasant driving feel.
Well, I gotta go out. Maybe more later.
Just because the japenese cars interiors are idiot proof doesn't make them better. Japan has yet to produce anything that drives overall as well as a german.
12-09-07, 12:05 AM
#19
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And about I-Drive, I have been saying negative things about I-Drive system all along. However, it takes time to get used to the I-drive. But after you get used to the system, it works like a charm (when the computer is not frozen, of course). I think I-Drive deserve more credit than people usually give. Kudos to BMW for having ***** to still implement the system after many negative initial reviews.
And about ergonomics, I could only find 2 cup holders in the X5!!!!
Last edited by STIG; 12-09-07 at 12:17 AM.
12-09-07, 12:15 AM
#20
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If you find i-drive difficult or non-intuitive, you probably find life the same too.
I sat in an M5 and was able to navigate everything easily. I don't know what all the fuss is about. The only change I would make is being able to move backwards through the menus by pulling up on the ****.
I sat in an M5 and was able to navigate everything easily. I don't know what all the fuss is about. The only change I would make is being able to move backwards through the menus by pulling up on the ****.
Last edited by STIG; 12-09-07 at 03:36 AM.
12-09-07, 12:15 AM
#21
Do I agree with you? well, yes and no.
Yes in that the BMWs do have a stiff accelerator making it hard to putt along and yes their steering wheel is heavy (took me by surprise the first time I drove it. Didn't know it required that much energy to move around the lot).
But you have to see why they're made that way. Europe tends to have large highways connecting countries, not to mention the famous autobahns. High speed driving on the autobahn requires precision steering and a superb chassis.
In Japan, there's no such thing (I think the speed limit on the highway is 80km/h???) and it's mostly small cars for city driving, therefore everything has to be light and easy to maneouvre (the wheel and the pedals).
Ergonomics? well most would say if you're driving in Europe, you shouldn't be fussing with the radio and climate control anyway and cupholders? Well you should be at a café enjoying your latté, not sitting in the car.
In Japan, well you have traffic and such so go ahead and watch satellite TV on your in-dash screen (if equipped with tv antenna). The buttons have to be easily identifiable and easy to use cause they will be used in the car in the traffic jam.
In short: it's the cultures.
Yes in that the BMWs do have a stiff accelerator making it hard to putt along and yes their steering wheel is heavy (took me by surprise the first time I drove it. Didn't know it required that much energy to move around the lot).
But you have to see why they're made that way. Europe tends to have large highways connecting countries, not to mention the famous autobahns. High speed driving on the autobahn requires precision steering and a superb chassis.
In Japan, there's no such thing (I think the speed limit on the highway is 80km/h???) and it's mostly small cars for city driving, therefore everything has to be light and easy to maneouvre (the wheel and the pedals).
Ergonomics? well most would say if you're driving in Europe, you shouldn't be fussing with the radio and climate control anyway and cupholders? Well you should be at a café enjoying your latté, not sitting in the car.
In Japan, well you have traffic and such so go ahead and watch satellite TV on your in-dash screen (if equipped with tv antenna). The buttons have to be easily identifiable and easy to use cause they will be used in the car in the traffic jam.
In short: it's the cultures.
12-09-07, 12:31 AM
#22
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My brother had a 5-series a while back and I loved how that thing drove! It's not that the German car companies are trying to not conform with the rest, they're just different in general. I do like the everyday drive feel of my SC400 over the 5-series, but that doesn't change the fact that the BMW was a nice car.
I disagree with the GTR being that great. I understand you're saying it's not better than EVERYTHING produced by the Germans, but the GTR's handling isn't mind-blowing by any means. I do really like the all around performance of the GTR though... It is one of the German's biggest threats from Japan for sure.
GTR will embarrass most Germans. Mark my word for it.
And about I-Drive, I have been saying negative things about I-Drive system all along. However, it takes time to get used to the I-drive. But after you get used to the system, it works like a charm (when the computer is not frozen, of course). I think I-Drive deserve more credit than people usually give. Kudos to BMW for having ***** to still implement the system after many negative initial reviews.
And about ergonomics, I could only find 2 cup holders in the X5!!!!
And about I-Drive, I have been saying negative things about I-Drive system all along. However, it takes time to get used to the I-drive. But after you get used to the system, it works like a charm (when the computer is not frozen, of course). I think I-Drive deserve more credit than people usually give. Kudos to BMW for having ***** to still implement the system after many negative initial reviews.
And about ergonomics, I could only find 2 cup holders in the X5!!!!
Last edited by TRD_Power; 12-09-07 at 12:36 AM.
12-09-07, 01:18 AM
#23
I have a 02 BMW 330i with sports and performance packages and navigation. I also still have my LS400 as well as had 3 other Lexus cars and a bunch of Acura cars. I personally like the driving feel of the BMW better than any car I've owned aside from my NSX. The NSX makes the BMW feel like a boat and has a great feedback and feeling steering with its manual steering rack. The radio is the BMW seems fine to me. It has a volume **** and preset station buttons like any other stock radio. I don't really care for the Nav as it is pretty slow, but it is a 2002 so the technology advancement since has been large. The only thing I don't really care for is the window switches on the center console. Now, it doesn't bother me, but I do get confused between the BMW and Lexus. Sometimes when I'm in the Lexus I reach for the center for the window and vise versa. I also get confused with the foot brake in the Lexus compared to the handbrake in the BMW. But other than that everything else ergonomically seems fine with me. The AC control seems like other Japanese Auto Climate controls I've used. The blinker is in the same spot as every other car. I actually like the cruise control set up better in the BMW than on my LS, but those are all minor stuff.
12-09-07, 02:15 AM
#24
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I disagree with the GTR being that great. I understand you're saying it's not better than EVERYTHING produced by the Germans, but the GTR's handling isn't mind-blowing by any means. I do really like the all around performance of the GTR though... It is one of the German's biggest threats from Japan for sure.
I think you have been playing too much GT5 on playstation 3.
12-09-07, 02:40 AM
#25
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That explains why one of my good friends, who is also a member of this board, kept on telling me 7 series handles like a boat. I thought he was crazy when he said that. He has 2004 NSX. Too bad he's too cheap to let me trash it.
12-09-07, 03:27 AM
#26
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You're not really at odds with me, Coco-bun. I know Audi does a nice job inside.....I wasn't referring to their interiors. Their main problems are mostly in the area of electronics....wiring, connectors, electric motors, etc....
12-09-07, 03:34 AM
#27
Pole Position
One thing that I really hate about most German and American cars is light switch or should i say dial. It's placed way off to the left and far away so you actually have to take your hand off the wheel and look down to see how you gonna turn on/off the lights. Japanese do it a lot more practical and intuitive.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.
12-09-07, 03:38 AM
#28
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So anyway, I know we ended up talking a lot about driving dynamics but my bigger problem is with interior ergonomics, comfort and quality.
Does anyone like the controls in these german cars? It seems like you need to learn the "German way" to do what is usually simple functions in cars.
Power window buttons for example are often at a wrist bending angle. And you might as well pull over to change climate or radio stations with i-Drive.
In a Japenese, American, or Korean car, it takes ONE EASY push of a button to do any desired function. This way, you can focus on DRIVING.
Does anyone like the controls in these german cars? It seems like you need to learn the "German way" to do what is usually simple functions in cars.
Power window buttons for example are often at a wrist bending angle. And you might as well pull over to change climate or radio stations with i-Drive.
In a Japenese, American, or Korean car, it takes ONE EASY push of a button to do any desired function. This way, you can focus on DRIVING.
12-09-07, 03:44 AM
#29
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I actually used to work at a dealership that sold exotics and they imported and converted (to LHD) a couple GTRs, which I drove. I didn't rail on it by any means, but getting on to the freeway, I could tell it wasn't anything to tinkle my britches over.
12-09-07, 09:08 AM
#30
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One thing that I really hate about most German and American cars is light switch or should i say dial. It's placed way off to the left and far away so you actually have to take your hand off the wheel and look down to see how you gonna turn on/off the lights. Japanese do it a lot more practical and intuitive.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.