proximal

Either the key was already in the car or it was a push button, I don't remember which. You could start it as you were climbing into the car.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Try holding your brakes down a long hill. You'll overcook your brakes and experience major brake fade. Definitely not something you would want.

mmarshall

Let me define the term "Engine Braking" for you guys, since some of you apparantly don't understand it. I know this is a little off-topic, but important:

Engine braking occurs when the forward motion or acceleration of the vehicle downhill or coasting on a level surface is impeded solely by the drag of the spinning drivetrain, without the use of, or need of, the brake pedal, or with just minimal use of the brakes. It usually occurs when the throttle is closed or under light throttle and the rotation speed of the engine's output shaft at the flywheel is more than the rotation speed of the drive shaft going to the drive wheels. The high vaccum and compression in the engine cylinders, under these conditions, has a noticeable tendency to counteract the increasing pull of gravity going downhill or coasting on a level surface, and the vehicle either slows down, or speeds up at a lower pace, thus saving wear on (and possible failure) of the brakes. Generally the lower the gear you are in, the stronger the effect of this engine braking you will get.....this is why it can be dangerous to coast down a long, steep hill in high gear (1 to 1 ratio ) or overdrive gears.

Other factors contribute as well, such as drag of the tires, road surface, air drag of the body design, etc...., and a major one is AWD.....AWD adds a noticeable amount of extra drag on the car, and helps with downhill engine braking even more.

This is why, on long, steep hills, you often see signs at the top, starting downhill, telling motorists to downshift, or with some heavy trucks that could run away, into first gear.

I haven't been all over the U.S., or in the Western mountains much, but one of my favorite places in the East, both for scenery, an impressive view, and a real test of engine braking, is the long, 3-mile 15% descent going west on U.S. Route 40 in southwest Pennsylvania from the top of Chestnut Ridge, or "Summit Mountain" way down to Hopwood and Uniontown at the bottom.This is a very famous and well-known hill, with impressive views, the Summit Inn at the top, and drops from 2500' to about 900' in three miles. Here are some views of it:
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8933.php
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv8934.php

and an old picture:
http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIONTOWN-HILL-N...ayphotohosting

Faymester

excellent explanation of engine breaking mmarshall. when i learned to drive standard i also took the time to learn how all the various parts of the car worked so that i would understand exaclty what i was controlling etc. like when u shift gears; the process is a lot easier if you understand what you're actually doing

the on topic comment:
i like the german feel (so long as it has an appropreately sized engine), and my next car will prolly be a german something. not everyone likes that, hence why there are many different car manufacturers, if everyone liked german cars, then the manufacturers from places other than germany wouldn't last very long. if you dislike german cars, then guess what? you don't have to buy them

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Engine braking is in effect anytime you lift off the throttle (at a certain RPM), up a hill or not. I just wish it was more apparent in my car. Shifting down to 2nd gear doesn't do much for me.

cjf_moraga

In the subjective category.... One aspect of the German v Japanese equation that has not been mentioned is that of style and design... Whether it is important depends on your taste and priorities to be sure... but I find most German cars (especially at the luxury end) have an "elegance", and purpose that can hit at an emotional level in a way that most Japanese designs find very hard to match... And that aspect IS hugely important to a lot of people even if they can't always define it... It's part of the mystique of each marque...

It's subjective, yes... but I look at the LS 460/600h and it looks engineered then externally styled in that order... (I see little sense anyone at Lexus is really thinking about interior design and cockpit organization) The emotional response is very different to an S-Class or BMW 3/5/7 which looks and feels designed inside and out as an integral whole ...and these manufacturers take risks and are innovative... I like that.

Chris

gengar

I agree with this almost completely. I've always felt there was a lot of arrogance from the German companies that has, in the past 1-2 decades, made then totally unresponsive to customer concerns, needs, and desires. This is from my experience both owning and shopping for German vehicles. And many people have noted and/or agreed that this attitude manifests itself at the dealership level.

I was done with Benzes (and much less keen on German cars in general) after my C43 experience, which was terrible. The car was great fun to drive and had a luxury/performance balance I preferred to the BMWs. But it was a nightmare from the reliability side. It suffered from interior and exterior design flaws as well as mechanical problems (had to replace catalytic converter at just 37k, faulty internal wiring problems, passenger seat adjust motors died twice despite being very rarely used, illumination on instrument cluster died, right rear speaker went out, etc.).

As if those issues weren't enough to get to me, what was really over the top was how the dealership staff treated me. To put it simply, they were real jerks. It's one thing to have problems with my car; another entirely to experience hassles and poor customer service when trying to fix it. Certainly sent me very quickly back to Lexus. My roommate's experience (and mind you he is a total BMW fanboy) with his nearly-lemon 328i and now his 335i (no problems yet, but the service from dealerships here stinks) are still making me steer well clear of the German dealers in town. Back in the Bay Area with my Lexus, I got my cars serviced at two dealerships (Serramonte and Magnussen) and I never had any negative experience, much less one anywhere close to as negative as ones I had at each of three Benz dealers to try to get my problems fixed. That demonstrates a systemic problem: Benz dealers just don't care.

In my opinion, the problem is very simple: Benz and to a lesser extent BMW have the brand image that supports their sales. They don't necessarily have a reputation for service, quality, reliability, or even performance (speaking across their entire product lines) but people still put them on a pedestal anyway. It's the same thing that makes all those posers want to go out and get one. We all know them; the guys driving around in a CLS550 with ridiculous looking rims and that's probably almost as expensive as their house. Lexus doesn't have that crowd or that attitude to depend on, which is why, unlike Benz or BMW, they actually have to care about their customers and the service issues.

I give Benz credit for recognizing that they had a lot of reliability issues with past cars. A classmate of mine from university has been working at Benz for some time now as a quality control specialist (he supervised the W221 team). At the same time, they've still got a long way to go, and they've got to make sure to bring their dealerships up to standards that someone paying this much for a car and this much for service should expect.


My roommate admits that he is not a fan of iDrive. That in itself speaks volumes.

-J-P-L-

That's what 1st and 2nd gear is for. I'm still not sold on why you need engine breaking all the time.

I descended Mt. Washington in New Hampshire without barely using brakes by simply throwing it in 1st. It is a 6300 foot descent.

That's the ONLY time I want engine braking. I don't want to feel like I'm driving with the e-brake on at a level surface.

-J-P-L-

Thanks for the description mmarshall.

mmarshall

In most cases, it is only in effect under the correct transmission input-output RPM and gear ratios, for reasons I've already explained..........try that in overdrive and you'll coast for quite a while, with very little engine braking effect (unless you have AWD). This is why steep mountain downgrades have warning signs telling people to downshift.

You descent down Mt. Washington in first gear was a wise move.
That road, although I have not personally driven it, is no place to be taking chances. On the 3-mile, 15%-grade Mt. Summit-Uniontown, PA descent (see the attached pictures I included with that post), I've always downshifted one gear (two gears with 5-speeds), and made it down safely each time with no problems or cooking the brakes.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

And guess what's the effect by throwing the transmission into a lower gear

My car is really annoying on the freeway when there is traffic. I only want to speed up just a bit and then let go to slow down. Instead, my car automatically shifts to the next gear when I lift my pedal. I guess I can put the transmission in 1st gear and ride through traffic, but it still coast quite a bit.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

You're right. The gearing makes a difference, but technically as soon as you take off your foot (when the RPM is above a certain range), you're going to have engine braking. The effects are not as strong for the reason you mentioned (via torque multiplication), but it's still there nonetheless. 2nd gear all the way to 5th gear is useless for engine braking in my car. I can drive down the hill at 35mph, put the tranny in 2nd gear, let go of the accelerator, and my car will keep on accelerating. It's useless unless I put it in 1st gear, but then 35mph in 1st gear is almost at redline . Definitely not something I would want to do.

mmarshall

Does your car have a Sport mode for the automatic transmission (not necessarily a manual-shift mode)? If so, that will raise both the upshift and downshift points and help keep the car in lower gears. Track drivers like this because it helps them power out of a corner easier after they have braked and let up on the gas entering the curve....assuming they don't go over redline in the lower gear, of course.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Anyways..back on topic..

I love the way german cars drive and feel. Their seats hug you most of the time in those corners. One thing I love most though, is BMW's inline-6 engines. It's VERY well balanced. The power seems linear and smooth no matter how much throttle I give it.

I'm okay with the interior quality. It's not the best, but it's not the worse. Talk about vault-like doors though!

Rollin'ES3

I'd have to disagree, my uncle has been in the Mechanic business for almost 30 years and works on nothing besides BMW and Mercedes BENZ. He tells me the cars are not as reliable and have more problems then the Japanese makes. The driving feel is one thing, German cars are just fun to drive, I work at a Korean make dealer (KIA) and have to agree with that. Although I now own 2 Lexus's, and 1 Toyota, Id have to say that Japanese cars are superior to German cars. I was raised with the Benz 190e, I also owned a S500 a few years ago, and the problems they possessed are just horrible in comparison to the problems of Japanese cars (which have been NOTHING but routine stuff). Just my opinion based off my experience.

Anyone agree?