My Rant on German Cars - Anyone Else Agree?
12-09-07, 08:12 PM
#62
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 7,864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12-09-07, 09:39 PM
#64
Lexus Fanatic
12-10-07, 06:41 AM
#65
The thread name should be changed to "My bash on German cars." lol.. As the owner of both German and Japanese vehicles I will speak from experience.. I must say the build quality of the German vehicles is superior to that of their Japanese counterparts. Japanese vehicles have that mass produced & tacked together feeling, where as German cars feel as if they are milled from a solid piece of steel. Japanese interiors do look more pleasing to the eye, but that is as far as it goes.. Get deeper and one will notice right away the differences between the Japanese made cars and the Germans.. Proof of this would be the ease of one pulling apart interior panels in a Japanese car. It is quite easy to find the gaps to pull apart any panel in a Japanese car.. Snap in snap out.. Try the same in a German..
Very difficult to remove interior panels in the German vehicles due to minimal gappage, and many of the interior panels being screwed in place. Minimal squeaks and rattles in the Germans as a result. The doors, trunk, and hood on the Germans close like a Sherman tank. Heck, I was waving the Japanese cars are the greatest flag just like some of you since that was all I owned in the past, and what I could afford at the time. My assessment is from ownership experience and not a one day test drive.
Very difficult to remove interior panels in the German vehicles due to minimal gappage, and many of the interior panels being screwed in place. Minimal squeaks and rattles in the Germans as a result. The doors, trunk, and hood on the Germans close like a Sherman tank. Heck, I was waving the Japanese cars are the greatest flag just like some of you since that was all I owned in the past, and what I could afford at the time. My assessment is from ownership experience and not a one day test drive.
12-10-07, 07:03 AM
#66
the problem with a "tough to disassemble" interior or exterior for that matter is if something goes wrong its a pain for the person trying to service it and to put it back together properly resulting in a load of hours and repair bill.
japanese are more like shermans, easily produced, easy to service, reliable, germans are still making their cars like their WW2 tanks: easily the best in a tank on tank situation but complicated to manafacture with reliability problems (panther transmissions and drivetrains problems)
japanese are more like shermans, easily produced, easy to service, reliable, germans are still making their cars like their WW2 tanks: easily the best in a tank on tank situation but complicated to manafacture with reliability problems (panther transmissions and drivetrains problems)
12-10-07, 09:38 AM
#67
japanese are more like shermans, easily produced, easy to service, reliable, germans are still making their cars like their WW2 tanks: easily the best in a tank on tank situation but complicated to manafacture with reliability problems (panther transmissions and drivetrains problems)
12-10-07, 09:57 AM
#68
the problem with a "tough to disassemble" interior or exterior for that matter is if something goes wrong its a pain for the person trying to service it and to put it back together properly resulting in a load of hours and repair bill.
japanese are more like shermans, easily produced, easy to service, reliable, germans are still making their cars like their WW2 tanks: easily the best in a tank on tank situation but complicated to manafacture with reliability problems (panther transmissions and drivetrains problems)
japanese are more like shermans, easily produced, easy to service, reliable, germans are still making their cars like their WW2 tanks: easily the best in a tank on tank situation but complicated to manafacture with reliability problems (panther transmissions and drivetrains problems)
12-10-07, 10:03 AM
#69
Lexus Test Driver
Very difficult to remove interior panels in the German vehicles due to minimal gappage, and many of the interior panels being screwed in place. Minimal squeaks and rattles in the Germans as a result. The doors, trunk, and hood on the Germans close like a Sherman tank. Heck, I was waving the Japanese cars are the greatest flag just like some of you since that was all I owned in the past, and what I could afford at the time. My assessment is from ownership experience and not a one day test drive.
As I stated, my beliefs are from experience owning the vehicles as well, and I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. The build quality from German vehicles just isn't there.
12-10-07, 10:09 AM
#70
Don't take this personally but I can't believe anyone would advocate for or prefer snap on cheaply make versus screwed in solid anything. Snap on crap is what's wrong with cars now. Techs have no patience. They just want to snap something in place and move on.....while still charging a hefty fee.
12-10-07, 12:12 PM
#71
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone who has been around CL for more than about a month has seen plenty of these threads. And yes, most do end up getting locked. Scanning the posts a couple of words stand out like "rant" and "arrogance". And there is plenty on all sides of this discussion. Bimmer and Merc and probably Audi owners have an irrational air of superiority and in this instance, Lexus owners can often have an irrational air of inferiority. Pretty much because if you place value on something by the pricetag, then the German brands will almost across the board have higher values than the Japanese car. And that is one of the dumbest analyses you will ever read. But there are those who actually think that way in their tiny minds.
The reason there is a marketplace is so the consumer can decide for himself what he wants to spend his bucks on. There are plenty of people that want the German hardware and plenty of people that want the Japanese hardware. Should either one declare defeat and liquidate? Of course not. A great deal of what we are dealing with here is perception and everyone will have their own perceptions of different autos. Bimmers have reputations for producing unreliable but driver involving autos. Maybe with too much electronics but obviously their buyers are willing to pay for that. Lexus have reputations for producing reliable but driver boring vehicles at a lower price point. Neither view is a roaring plus or negative. And neither view is totally accurate.
This thread was started by someone who says he has access to a number of 06 and 07 BMWs on a Honda used car lot. That is some Honda used car lot. But many of us have driven or owned bimmers and mercs and what not and I doubt that any of us would describe a three series steering as numb or with large amounts of slop around center. Could it be that this is the reason that that particular 3 series was on a Honda used car lot? Who knows? But leaving MB out of the mix for a while, bimmer has been improving reliability and various models of the 3, 5, and 7 now have CR recommeded buy ratings. By the same token, the new LS and GS have some issues - just cruise the LS board and read about wind noise, grabby brakes, and other issues that owners are pointing out. But let's be honest, if there is a reason that bimmer is improving reliability, it is because of Lexus. And if there are more driver oriented cars coming out of Lexus, it is because of bimmer. Will either one get all high end car sales? I sure hope not. Does either one produce perfect cars? Not by a long shot.
So in the final analysis a japanese car is different from a german car, there's a shock. If you like the Lexus and believe it provides the value that you want, buy the Lexus. The same applies to a bimmer. There are a whole lot of people who just can't stand the fact that someone they know not only doesn't lead sideline cheers for their automotive buying decision but actively questions your cognitive powers for making the decision you did. Someone goes for a ride in a bimmer and finds it hard riding and the steering numb (?) and they go get a Lexus because it is perfect for them. Great. And someone feels a Lexus is boring and buys a bimmer because it is perfect for them. Great. Car purchases provide a selection of intangibles to be evaluated including cost, reliability, resale value, comfort, insurance costs, space, ride/handling, operating costs, etc. and there isn't a perfect car. Some people want to consistently buy the same brand car and some look for something different when it comes time to change. No need to rant for or against either position.
The reason there is a marketplace is so the consumer can decide for himself what he wants to spend his bucks on. There are plenty of people that want the German hardware and plenty of people that want the Japanese hardware. Should either one declare defeat and liquidate? Of course not. A great deal of what we are dealing with here is perception and everyone will have their own perceptions of different autos. Bimmers have reputations for producing unreliable but driver involving autos. Maybe with too much electronics but obviously their buyers are willing to pay for that. Lexus have reputations for producing reliable but driver boring vehicles at a lower price point. Neither view is a roaring plus or negative. And neither view is totally accurate.
This thread was started by someone who says he has access to a number of 06 and 07 BMWs on a Honda used car lot. That is some Honda used car lot. But many of us have driven or owned bimmers and mercs and what not and I doubt that any of us would describe a three series steering as numb or with large amounts of slop around center. Could it be that this is the reason that that particular 3 series was on a Honda used car lot? Who knows? But leaving MB out of the mix for a while, bimmer has been improving reliability and various models of the 3, 5, and 7 now have CR recommeded buy ratings. By the same token, the new LS and GS have some issues - just cruise the LS board and read about wind noise, grabby brakes, and other issues that owners are pointing out. But let's be honest, if there is a reason that bimmer is improving reliability, it is because of Lexus. And if there are more driver oriented cars coming out of Lexus, it is because of bimmer. Will either one get all high end car sales? I sure hope not. Does either one produce perfect cars? Not by a long shot.
So in the final analysis a japanese car is different from a german car, there's a shock. If you like the Lexus and believe it provides the value that you want, buy the Lexus. The same applies to a bimmer. There are a whole lot of people who just can't stand the fact that someone they know not only doesn't lead sideline cheers for their automotive buying decision but actively questions your cognitive powers for making the decision you did. Someone goes for a ride in a bimmer and finds it hard riding and the steering numb (?) and they go get a Lexus because it is perfect for them. Great. And someone feels a Lexus is boring and buys a bimmer because it is perfect for them. Great. Car purchases provide a selection of intangibles to be evaluated including cost, reliability, resale value, comfort, insurance costs, space, ride/handling, operating costs, etc. and there isn't a perfect car. Some people want to consistently buy the same brand car and some look for something different when it comes time to change. No need to rant for or against either position.
12-10-07, 12:25 PM
#72
Lead Lap
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: il
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heres my input, i gotta give my appreciation to Lexus.. AMAZING cars, absolutely, but for me... to soft and bouncy? i mean i'm into the whole "cant turn the wheel with only a finger," driving experience. I have driven everythign from Civic's to Mercedes to BMW's to Lexus... The cars in my family are so mixed up its pretty cool. I do have to say i prefer my Sport suspensioned coupe "sporty" BMW though...
Mom drives an RX300
Dad drives a S500
lil sister drives my old ES300
older sister drives a Civic
i obviously drive a BMW
VV
Mom drives an RX300
Dad drives a S500
lil sister drives my old ES300
older sister drives a Civic
i obviously drive a BMW
VV
12-10-07, 01:37 PM
#73
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SF
Posts: 6,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My IS350 had to go back to dealer twice to fix the dash rattles problem, and it is problem free ever since. Lexus customer service is excellent. They took seriously to ever complaints that I made.
2007 X5 4.8i literally fall apart after a week we took delivery. Wheel fender fall off on the freeway, rough shifting point, AC fan noises, engine stalls, Comfort access acting weird sometimes, and what worst is that BMW pretty much tell us to deal with that, and ignore most of the complaints. I am pretty sure there are nice BMW dealership out there but not the one we usually deal with. (not to mention, ford focus for the loner car for 80k BMW)
When it comes to driving dynamic, BMW owns Lexus, hands down. The 6000+lbs has no body roll or whatsoever compare to the IS350. I love the X5 when it works. But when it comes to build quality, I am not so sure.
12-10-07, 04:14 PM
#74
Lexus Fanatic
As the owner of both German and Japanese vehicles I will speak from experience.. I must say the build quality of the German vehicles is superior to that of their Japanese counterparts. Japanese vehicles have that mass produced & tacked together feeling, where as German cars feel as if they are milled from a solid piece of steel.
Mercedes, though, in some ways, has dropped the most. They still do very well in crash tests, and still have a reputation for safety, but compare the sheet metal and doors of the 80's and early 90's vintage models to today, and it is like night and day.
VW, though, seems to be improving. I have been pleased with the body/sheet metal quality of most of the new VW's I've seen (check out my recent review of the R32). Now, if only the VW electronics would hold up........
12-10-07, 07:36 PM
#75
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 7,864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone who has been around CL for more than about a month has seen plenty of these threads. And yes, most do end up getting locked. Scanning the posts a couple of words stand out like "rant" and "arrogance". And there is plenty on all sides of this discussion. Bimmer and Merc and probably Audi owners have an irrational air of superiority and in this instance, Lexus owners can often have an irrational air of inferiority. Pretty much because if you place value on something by the pricetag, then the German brands will almost across the board have higher values than the Japanese car. And that is one of the dumbest analyses you will ever read. But there are those who actually think that way in their tiny minds.
The reason there is a marketplace is so the consumer can decide for himself what he wants to spend his bucks on. There are plenty of people that want the German hardware and plenty of people that want the Japanese hardware. Should either one declare defeat and liquidate? Of course not. A great deal of what we are dealing with here is perception and everyone will have their own perceptions of different autos. Bimmers have reputations for producing unreliable but driver involving autos. Maybe with too much electronics but obviously their buyers are willing to pay for that. Lexus have reputations for producing reliable but driver boring vehicles at a lower price point. Neither view is a roaring plus or negative. And neither view is totally accurate.
This thread was started by someone who says he has access to a number of 06 and 07 BMWs on a Honda used car lot. That is some Honda used car lot. But many of us have driven or owned bimmers and mercs and what not and I doubt that any of us would describe a three series steering as numb or with large amounts of slop around center. Could it be that this is the reason that that particular 3 series was on a Honda used car lot? Who knows? But leaving MB out of the mix for a while, bimmer has been improving reliability and various models of the 3, 5, and 7 now have CR recommeded buy ratings. By the same token, the new LS and GS have some issues - just cruise the LS board and read about wind noise, grabby brakes, and other issues that owners are pointing out. But let's be honest, if there is a reason that bimmer is improving reliability, it is because of Lexus. And if there are more driver oriented cars coming out of Lexus, it is because of bimmer. Will either one get all high end car sales? I sure hope not. Does either one produce perfect cars? Not by a long shot.
So in the final analysis a japanese car is different from a german car, there's a shock. If you like the Lexus and believe it provides the value that you want, buy the Lexus. The same applies to a bimmer. There are a whole lot of people who just can't stand the fact that someone they know not only doesn't lead sideline cheers for their automotive buying decision but actively questions your cognitive powers for making the decision you did. Someone goes for a ride in a bimmer and finds it hard riding and the steering numb (?) and they go get a Lexus because it is perfect for them. Great. And someone feels a Lexus is boring and buys a bimmer because it is perfect for them. Great. Car purchases provide a selection of intangibles to be evaluated including cost, reliability, resale value, comfort, insurance costs, space, ride/handling, operating costs, etc. and there isn't a perfect car. Some people want to consistently buy the same brand car and some look for something different when it comes time to change. No need to rant for or against either position.
The reason there is a marketplace is so the consumer can decide for himself what he wants to spend his bucks on. There are plenty of people that want the German hardware and plenty of people that want the Japanese hardware. Should either one declare defeat and liquidate? Of course not. A great deal of what we are dealing with here is perception and everyone will have their own perceptions of different autos. Bimmers have reputations for producing unreliable but driver involving autos. Maybe with too much electronics but obviously their buyers are willing to pay for that. Lexus have reputations for producing reliable but driver boring vehicles at a lower price point. Neither view is a roaring plus or negative. And neither view is totally accurate.
This thread was started by someone who says he has access to a number of 06 and 07 BMWs on a Honda used car lot. That is some Honda used car lot. But many of us have driven or owned bimmers and mercs and what not and I doubt that any of us would describe a three series steering as numb or with large amounts of slop around center. Could it be that this is the reason that that particular 3 series was on a Honda used car lot? Who knows? But leaving MB out of the mix for a while, bimmer has been improving reliability and various models of the 3, 5, and 7 now have CR recommeded buy ratings. By the same token, the new LS and GS have some issues - just cruise the LS board and read about wind noise, grabby brakes, and other issues that owners are pointing out. But let's be honest, if there is a reason that bimmer is improving reliability, it is because of Lexus. And if there are more driver oriented cars coming out of Lexus, it is because of bimmer. Will either one get all high end car sales? I sure hope not. Does either one produce perfect cars? Not by a long shot.
So in the final analysis a japanese car is different from a german car, there's a shock. If you like the Lexus and believe it provides the value that you want, buy the Lexus. The same applies to a bimmer. There are a whole lot of people who just can't stand the fact that someone they know not only doesn't lead sideline cheers for their automotive buying decision but actively questions your cognitive powers for making the decision you did. Someone goes for a ride in a bimmer and finds it hard riding and the steering numb (?) and they go get a Lexus because it is perfect for them. Great. And someone feels a Lexus is boring and buys a bimmer because it is perfect for them. Great. Car purchases provide a selection of intangibles to be evaluated including cost, reliability, resale value, comfort, insurance costs, space, ride/handling, operating costs, etc. and there isn't a perfect car. Some people want to consistently buy the same brand car and some look for something different when it comes time to change. No need to rant for or against either position.
Some very good points.
A couple of things though. Your the 2nd person to say I work at a Honda dealer. You actually say "Honda used car lot". I work at a an Acura Dealer and they only sell premium used cars (aside from new acuras of course). I never said anything about a Honda dealer.
And yes, there have been somewhat similar threads but the idea of this one was specifically to compare German car's ergonomics and feel to other country's makes. Other threads have focused more on styling, reliability, or high performance, ect.
And to everyone, sorry for the thread title. Using the word rant was a mistake. I wanted this to be a civil discussion comparing likes and dislikes.
No bashing was ever intended. Like I said, I don't hate German cars, there
are just many things about them that I personally find less satisfying than Japenese vehicles. Just a matter of taste and preference.
