My Rant on German Cars - Anyone Else Agree?
12-13-07, 06:24 PM
#121
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BMW has the best drive feel of any car, but the Germans are way behind in designing reliable elctronic components that last. This is what lead me to Japanese cars like Infiniti and finally to Lexus. The senors last along with other components. The best way to find out about a cars reliablity is to speak to the parts department guys. Most of the very high end BMW's, Mercedes' and Audi's priced 80k and over 100k have the most problems. I have a buddy with a 94 Supra with over 100k and a newer M3. He said the M3 with 17,000 miles on it was a piece of junk compared to the Supra. He babies both vehicles.
"Robert Bosch GmbH is the world's largest supplier of automobile components and has business relationships with virtually every automobile company in the world. The automotive product portfolio of the company includes niche solutions such as powertrain automation, vehicle dynamics stability and also smaller components such as starters, alternators, spark plugs etc."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens
In fact when it comes to technology, Germany is the largest exporter of high tech products and services, as well as the worlds largest exporter overall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ies_by_exports
Last edited by mavericck; 12-13-07 at 06:29 PM.
12-13-07, 07:22 PM
#122
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Why did we need to "fix" it? The old system wasn't broke. The new system IS.
Mercedes THOUGHT it would work. It didn't. The high failure and unreliability rate and constant customer complaints proved that...to the point that many of the cars that had it are actually being retrofitted with conventional hydraulic systems. In fact, the M-B electronic system itself had an emergency hydraulic master cylinder.
Maybe, in the future, someone will come up with an all-electronic brake activation system that DOES work well. That day has not come....and I wouldn't hold my breath.
Same with aircraft (I am an ex-pilot myself). Electronic Fly-By-Wire systems that trade conventional cable and hydraulic actuators for rudder, ailerons, elevator, flaps, etc......have been the source of numerous pilot complaints that planes are harder to control by feel alone. This can make things dicey when trying to make a runway approach in crosswinds or turbulence.
Mercedes THOUGHT it would work. It didn't. The high failure and unreliability rate and constant customer complaints proved that...to the point that many of the cars that had it are actually being retrofitted with conventional hydraulic systems. In fact, the M-B electronic system itself had an emergency hydraulic master cylinder.
Maybe, in the future, someone will come up with an all-electronic brake activation system that DOES work well. That day has not come....and I wouldn't hold my breath.
Same with aircraft (I am an ex-pilot myself). Electronic Fly-By-Wire systems that trade conventional cable and hydraulic actuators for rudder, ailerons, elevator, flaps, etc......have been the source of numerous pilot complaints that planes are harder to control by feel alone. This can make things dicey when trying to make a runway approach in crosswinds or turbulence.
Oh and yes, the same technology goes into BMW's active steering allowing the car to compensate to preserve stability - even in cross wind situations (yea just like an airplane!).
12-13-07, 07:39 PM
#123
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Waaiitt a minute here... you saying the fly-by-wire systems (used first on the A320 and now by all new Airbus and Boeing planes (including the 1995 777) is less superior and make it harder to control? Its the exact opposite - the fly-by-wire avionics can assist in all of those situations you describe AND really can help in the event of an engine failure (especially on a two engine aircraft)... but you know this already yes?
Oh and yes, the same technology goes into BMW's active steering allowing the car to compensate to preserve stability - even in cross wind situations (yea just like an airplane!).
Oh and yes, the same technology goes into BMW's active steering allowing the car to compensate to preserve stability - even in cross wind situations (yea just like an airplane!).
Ever seen some of the test flights of the F/A-18 when they would purposely depart controlled flight and the computer would automatically recover? Man, that's a stomach wrencher. Hold on to the towelbars and your lunch.
Last edited by cal_alum98; 12-13-07 at 07:49 PM.
12-14-07, 04:36 AM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
Waaiitt a minute here... you saying the fly-by-wire systems (used first on the A320 and now by all new Airbus and Boeing planes (including the 1995 777) is less superior and make it harder to control? Its the exact opposite - the fly-by-wire avionics can assist in all of those situations you describe AND really can help in the event of an engine failure (especially on a two engine aircraft)... but you know this already yes?
We're getting off into another area here (aviation) and a little off-topic, but I brought it up to illustrate that conventional manual controls are often better then by-wire systems. And as far as control failure goes, cables and hydraulic power-boosters are usually less likely to fail then fickle and sensitive electronics. Even in cars, witness the high failure rate of such systems in the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class. Like I said earlier, that is undoubtedly the main reason why we have not seen steer-by-wire systems in production cars.
12-14-07, 10:20 AM
#125
I know a lot of people praise BMW's steering feel and that's fine. I personally disagree. Right now, we have a 3,5, and 7 series (all '06's-'07's) on the lot that I've driven. The 3 was the biggest surprise to me because it's steering delivered a delayed response (you have to turn the wheel like 30 degrees before it starts turning the car). The 5 series is just very tight and too much energy is put into steering that I wouldn't want to drive for long. However, the 7 delivers a more comfortable feel which I don't have any complaints about.
These steering characteristics are perhaps better at high speeds but most steering is done at low speeds. I want a car that is comfortable to steer in the city where I'm steering constantly. On the highway, I'm pretty much driving straight.
These steering characteristics are perhaps better at high speeds but most steering is done at low speeds. I want a car that is comfortable to steer in the city where I'm steering constantly. On the highway, I'm pretty much driving straight.
I have no idea how you think they are not ergonomic or the steering feel feels bad. To each his own but your opinion seems far from the norm.
One thing that I really hate about most German and American cars is light switch or should i say dial. It's placed way off to the left and far away so you actually have to take your hand off the wheel and look down to see how you gonna turn on/off the lights. Japanese do it a lot more practical and intuitive.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.
That is the only thing about cars I can generalize on national scale because such patent is widely adopted by Germans and Americans but totally rejected by Japanese and French.
So guys, can someone tell me why these German cars barely roll when you let off of the brake?? Other cars will get up to around 15 mph without touching the gas which is great for slow stop and go traffic. I find it very weird when I jump in a German car and when I let off the gas it comes to a quick stop without hitting the brake at all. It feels like something is pushing me back.
This doesn't have anything to do with high performance driving.
This doesn't have anything to do with high performance driving.
Are you kidding? I had more rattle and interior problems on my C43 (and my roommate on his 328i - his 335i is holding up for now, though) than I've ever had on any Lexus I've owned. The '97 LS400 was the only one I ever had any types of rattle problems with, and it was very easy for the dealer to fix. The C43 pretty much rattled apart. :/ I really liked that car, it was just a nightmare from the reliability standpoint and I felt necessary to get rid of it.
As I stated, my beliefs are from experience owning the vehicles as well, and I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. The build quality from German vehicles just isn't there.
As I stated, my beliefs are from experience owning the vehicles as well, and I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. The build quality from German vehicles just isn't there.
Last edited by OC 335d; 12-14-07 at 10:28 AM.
12-14-07, 10:33 AM
#126
I am going to post what bitkahuna said in another thread. Honestly, outside the IS-F, Lexus gets their juiced all warmed up (lol) by producing a car that gives ease to the driver, one that makes his life simplier and easier.
On the other hand, Germans get their juices all warmed up with a more personal feel for the driver.
Though, in recent years, the lines have blurred.
1. Japanese cars looking German. German cars looking Japanese
2. Japanese cars mimicing German dimensions and driving prowness.
3. German cars adding more and more electric da doos in their cars.
4. German and Japanese cars made everywhere, not just their home nations.
TO ME, there is nothing like closing the door of a German car, especially an older one. There is a certain "thunk" that I can't find any Japanese car to imitate.
TO ME, there is nothing like driving a Lexus when you want comfort and peace of mind on the way to work or just driving around.
On the other hand, Germans get their juices all warmed up with a more personal feel for the driver.
Though, in recent years, the lines have blurred.
1. Japanese cars looking German. German cars looking Japanese
2. Japanese cars mimicing German dimensions and driving prowness.
3. German cars adding more and more electric da doos in their cars.
4. German and Japanese cars made everywhere, not just their home nations.
TO ME, there is nothing like closing the door of a German car, especially an older one. There is a certain "thunk" that I can't find any Japanese car to imitate.
TO ME, there is nothing like driving a Lexus when you want comfort and peace of mind on the way to work or just driving around.
12-14-07, 01:27 PM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
I'm with those who prefer the headlight switch on the steering-column stalk for quick, easy access, though I also agree with OC 335i that it is no big deal if it is on the dash as a rotary switch. I notice that vehicles of Japanese or Korean design tend to have the stalk design; vehicles of American or European design tend to have it on the dash. There are some exceptions, though.....the older Saturn S-series cars had it on the stalk (they were designed to compete with Japanese imports), and with French cars, you can literally have the switch almost anywhere...........French vehicles are famous for their quirkiness. In my brother's old Renault, if you signalled for a right turn with the left-hand stalk, like in a conventional car, you shut the headlights off.
12-14-07, 01:44 PM
#128
Lexus Test Driver
12-14-07, 04:50 PM
#129
Doesn't matter. I can get an older but not too old S class that is a lot quieter than any IS/3 Series/etc. around. I don't see how you can compare an LS or 3 series, depreciation or not. They are not the same car, the are not targeted at the same audience, and the flagship cars are definitely more catered towards luxury.
12-14-07, 06:44 PM
#130
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So I was in PepBoys yesterday and a lady in front of me in her late 50's tells the service guy that her driver side windshield wiper shut flew off on the highway from her VW Jetta. BTW, this is at the beginning of the big snow storm we had and it was coming down hard so she needed a wiper to keep driving. So the service guy immediately has a negative expression on his face and apologizes and says that they don't carry them because VW started putting a completely different wiper mount on their cars (another German parts problem where you have to go to the dealer or some specialty place).
The nearest VW dealer was about 15 miles away. To bad she bought a German car. I felt so bad for her.
I bring this up to point out another little thing I don't appreciate about German automakers. They feel the need to make everything/part against the norm. For example, I have to sometimes put plates on cars at the dealer. Well, every car takes the same size scews to mount them, EXCEPT the German cars. We don't even carry the odd size they need. Our tech's don't even have the tools necessary to fix many things on German cars so we have to send them down the street to a specialist that we deal with.
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
The nearest VW dealer was about 15 miles away. To bad she bought a German car. I felt so bad for her.
I bring this up to point out another little thing I don't appreciate about German automakers. They feel the need to make everything/part against the norm. For example, I have to sometimes put plates on cars at the dealer. Well, every car takes the same size scews to mount them, EXCEPT the German cars. We don't even carry the odd size they need. Our tech's don't even have the tools necessary to fix many things on German cars so we have to send them down the street to a specialist that we deal with.
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
12-14-07, 09:37 PM
#131
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In some extreme situations, the fly-by-wire systems can sometimes help maintain control.....but in general, they are more difficult for the pilot to fly smoothly and by feel. Crosswind approaches with turbulence are especially tricky...the pilot has to fly and control second-by-second, and feel exactly what the ailerons, rudder, and nose are doing. Let a strong crosswind get the best of you on a touchdown, and the nose or main wheels touch down at a crab angle, and the plane can be damaged or you can lose control on the runway. If you have never landed an aircraft under these conditions (as I have, though not in large aircraft like the 777) it's hard to describe it on paper...you have to see for yourself.
We're getting off into another area here (aviation) and a little off-topic, but I brought it up to illustrate that conventional manual controls are often better then by-wire systems. And as far as control failure goes, cables and hydraulic power-boosters are usually less likely to fail then fickle and sensitive electronics. Even in cars, witness the high failure rate of such systems in the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class. Like I said earlier, that is undoubtedly the main reason why we have not seen steer-by-wire systems in production cars.
We're getting off into another area here (aviation) and a little off-topic, but I brought it up to illustrate that conventional manual controls are often better then by-wire systems. And as far as control failure goes, cables and hydraulic power-boosters are usually less likely to fail then fickle and sensitive electronics. Even in cars, witness the high failure rate of such systems in the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class. Like I said earlier, that is undoubtedly the main reason why we have not seen steer-by-wire systems in production cars.
Enjoy this video...(and note the angle the 777s are landing at)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK6jDsact3c
and yes, I've landed a 747-400 in a crosswind in a UA simulator (no fly by wire there) - sure would have loved to have had some help.........
PS - the people on the Turkish airways DC-10 as well as the people on the UA DC-10 that crash landed in Sioux City sure would have preferred fly by wire to your conventional hydraulic stuff.
PPS - it is the extreme stuff that tends to kill ya - not the conventional landings....
anyway enough off topic stuff....
I bring this up to point out another little thing I don't appreciate about German automakers. They feel the need to make everything/part against the norm. For example, I have to sometimes put plates on cars at the dealer. Well, every car takes the same size scews to mount them, EXCEPT the German cars. We don't even carry the odd size they need. Our tech's don't even have the tools necessary to fix many things on German cars so we have to send them down the street to a specialist that we deal with.
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
Have you ever owned a BMW or a German car? Or have they just been short drives across the lot?
12-15-07, 05:05 AM
#132
They feel the need to make everything/part against the norm. For example, I have to sometimes put plates on cars at the dealer. Well, every car takes the same size scews to mount them, EXCEPT the German cars. We don't even carry the odd size they need. Our tech's don't even have the tools necessary to fix many things on German cars so we have to send them down the street to a specialist that we deal with.
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
Do they do this so that their dealer networks can make all the money repairing these cars?
12-15-07, 07:54 AM
#133
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I've driven them much more than just on the lot (including highways). There are certainly good driving qualities about German cars particularly at highter speeds. But this thread is a lot more than just about driving dynamics.
BTW, your response had nothing to do with that particular post.
12-15-07, 11:24 AM
#134
Lexus Test Driver
Furthermore, I'm not the one doing the comparing; look at the quote in my post you quoted. I was responding to that person. Get on his case about making unspecific and generalized comparisons, if that's your meager intent in this thread.
12-15-07, 12:52 PM
#135
So what? The sticker on my C43 was more than the sticker on my LS400, even though I received both cars used. And it was considerably more than the sticker on my SC400.
Again, I don't understand why you're bring up depreciation. Depreciation has nothing to do with it. Are you totally unaware of the relative MSRP of the cars I discussed?
Furthermore, I'm not the one doing the comparing; look at the quote in my post you quoted. I was responding to that person. Get on his case about making unspecific and generalized comparisons, if that's your meager intent in this thread.
Again, I don't understand why you're bring up depreciation. Depreciation has nothing to do with it. Are you totally unaware of the relative MSRP of the cars I discussed?
Furthermore, I'm not the one doing the comparing; look at the quote in my post you quoted. I was responding to that person. Get on his case about making unspecific and generalized comparisons, if that's your meager intent in this thread.
If you don't think so, that's fine. Moving on...