Wards announces "Ten Best Engines" list for 2007
12-13-07, 10:31 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Why is the CTS engine on there as well? That engine is again, no marvel and does not beat the Lexus 3.5 liter.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
The 335 and IS 350 are faster and more fuel efficient that the 3.7 VQ. Those engines are also used in more vehicles. Again, I would have left the 3.5 on there.
Not saying at all they are bad engines, they are good engines. I expected this list to be the BEST engines.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
The 335 and IS 350 are faster and more fuel efficient that the 3.7 VQ. Those engines are also used in more vehicles. Again, I would have left the 3.5 on there.
Not saying at all they are bad engines, they are good engines. I expected this list to be the BEST engines.
Though for what its worth, 0-60 can be a function of traction and gearing, so comparing the equally weighted GS350 AWD to a RWD CTS is not as reasonable as comparing the 1/4-mile times.
12-13-07, 10:33 AM
#17
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Agreed with 1SICKLEX. If I had to come up with a list it would probably be something like:
Audi 4.2L V8 (RS4 and R8)
Audi FSI 2.0L turbo 4cylinder (A3)
BMW 3.0L TT I6 (335i and 535i)
BMW 4.0L V8 (M3)
Lexus 3.5L V6 (IS350 and GS 350)
Honda 2.4L 4cylinder (Accord)
Toyota 5.7L V8 (Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser)
GM 6.0L Hybrid V8 (Yukon and Tahoe)
Toyota 3.5L V6 (Camry and Highlander)
Toyota 1.5L Hybrid 4cylinder (Prius)
I feel like any variant of the VQ almost has to be on the list, regardless of if it is really deserving or not. It's a tradition, but not one that I particularly agree with.
I am also not sure if I agree with Cadillac's placement on the list, for the same reasons as the G37. It's not the fastest nor does it return the best fuel economy. It's outdone by 6 cylinders from BMW and Lexus.
Audi 4.2L V8 (RS4 and R8)
Audi FSI 2.0L turbo 4cylinder (A3)
BMW 3.0L TT I6 (335i and 535i)
BMW 4.0L V8 (M3)
Lexus 3.5L V6 (IS350 and GS 350)
Honda 2.4L 4cylinder (Accord)
Toyota 5.7L V8 (Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser)
GM 6.0L Hybrid V8 (Yukon and Tahoe)
Toyota 3.5L V6 (Camry and Highlander)
Toyota 1.5L Hybrid 4cylinder (Prius)
I feel like any variant of the VQ almost has to be on the list, regardless of if it is really deserving or not. It's a tradition, but not one that I particularly agree with.
I am also not sure if I agree with Cadillac's placement on the list, for the same reasons as the G37. It's not the fastest nor does it return the best fuel economy. It's outdone by 6 cylinders from BMW and Lexus.
12-13-07, 10:45 AM
#18
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What's fantastic about it? It makes no more if not less power than much of the competition and in the two cars its currently found in the throttle response isn't as impressive as the competition.
So it doesn't really stand out in terms of performance.
Its reliability is probably going to be good but is mostly unknown at this point so to assume its reliability when its the first ground up redesigned car V8 Lexus has used since its inception around the 1990 model year... I'd say it's not completely safe to assume it should win based on reliability.
I'd say the only category where it definitely stands out is how smooth it is. But is that a function of the motor or moreso of the car that the motor is in?
12-13-07, 11:06 AM
#19
Audi AG: FSI 2.0L turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3)
BMW AG: 3.0L turbocharged DOHC I-6 (335i Coupe)
So my two most recent motors made the list. The Toyota 3.5 shares quite a bit, I believe, with the Toyota 4.0 in our 4runner so that's kinda sorta on the list too.
The Nissan VQ series never ceases to impress - it hasn't missed a single year on the list since the list was first invented over 10 years ago!
What's fantastic about it? It makes no more if not less power than much of the competition and in the two cars its currently found in the throttle response isn't as impressive as the competition.
So it doesn't really stand out in terms of performance.
Its reliability is probably going to be good but is mostly unknown at this point so to assume its reliability when its the first ground up redesigned car V8 Lexus has used since its inception around the 1990 model year... I'd say it's not completely safe to assume it should win based on reliability.
I'd say the only category where it definitely stands out is how smooth it is. But is that a function of the motor or moreso of the car that the motor is in?
BMW AG: 3.0L turbocharged DOHC I-6 (335i Coupe)
So my two most recent motors made the list. The Toyota 3.5 shares quite a bit, I believe, with the Toyota 4.0 in our 4runner so that's kinda sorta on the list too.
The Nissan VQ series never ceases to impress - it hasn't missed a single year on the list since the list was first invented over 10 years ago!
What's fantastic about it? It makes no more if not less power than much of the competition and in the two cars its currently found in the throttle response isn't as impressive as the competition.
So it doesn't really stand out in terms of performance.
Its reliability is probably going to be good but is mostly unknown at this point so to assume its reliability when its the first ground up redesigned car V8 Lexus has used since its inception around the 1990 model year... I'd say it's not completely safe to assume it should win based on reliability.
I'd say the only category where it definitely stands out is how smooth it is. But is that a function of the motor or moreso of the car that the motor is in?
12-13-07, 11:24 AM
#20
Pole Position
I agree, they dropped the ball on that one. I would just keep the 3.5VQ but that is now 2nd best to the Toyota 3.5.
I also disagree with the Honda 3.5 on there, why is it? Again, its not as good as the Toyota 3.5. I do think their new 190hp 4 cylinder in the Accord should have made the list instead.
Why is the Mustang engine there? Its no marvel. Its a good engine but not great.
I also disagree with the Honda 3.5 on there, why is it? Again, its not as good as the Toyota 3.5. I do think their new 190hp 4 cylinder in the Accord should have made the list instead.
Why is the Mustang engine there? Its no marvel. Its a good engine but not great.
Last edited by IS350jet; 12-13-07 at 03:51 PM.
12-13-07, 11:36 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Why is the CTS engine on there as well? That engine is again, no marvel and does not beat the Lexus 3.5 liter.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
12-13-07, 11:43 AM
#22
Lexus Champion
I didn't want to ruffle feathers but I did think the 4.6 should have been on it or how close was it. In the LS it has .9 liters LESS than Benz 5.5 liter but makes only 2 less hp. Its fuel economy is tops in class and its used in the GS as well. However, its performance is not heads and shoulders above the 7/S so I can understand it NOT making the list.
I don't really think there's any credibility to the horsepower per liter measurement either. The displacement of a motor is only one of many variables that can affect power output. What about horsepower per valve, horsepower per bore/stroke inches, horsepower per valvetrain weight, horsepower per cam, horsepower per cam profile/aggressiveness, horsepower per redline rpm, etc, etc. I just get annoyed with people who, for example, look at the Corvette's 6.2L V8 and call it "cheating" or "redneck engineering". Well here's the facts - the Vette 6.2 is a very light weight motor with compact dimensions (due to being OHV), low cost of production, good NVH (for a sports car), good reliability, low cost of repairs, and great gas mileage. So if big displacement is cheating, I sure don't understand why more manufacturers don't "cheat" like that...
12-13-07, 11:54 AM
#23
That figure has always puzzled me and I have my doubts as to whether it is completely credible or a piece of equiptment might have been off. How does a v-6 with only 5 more horsepower and alot less torque in a heavier awd vehicle out accelerate so much a v-8 powered car with just 5 less horsepower and much higher torque in a lighter rwd vehicle. The quickest 0-60 times for the GS430 I have seen were 5.7 seconds with most figures running from 5.7-6.1 yet the GS350awd model obtains a 5.3 second time which is very hard to believe. It must mean the v-8 is very inferior to this v6 and I don't understand why it would be so inferior.
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 12-13-07 at 12:00 PM.
12-13-07, 11:58 AM
#24
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That figure has always puzzled me and I have my doubts as to whether it is completely credible or a piece of equiptment might have been off. How does a v-6 with only 5 more horsepower and alot less torque in a heavier awd vehicle out accelerate so much a v-8 powered car with just 5 less horsepower and much higher torque in a lighter rwd vehicle. The quickest 0-60 times for the GS430 I have seen were 5.7 seconds with most figures running from 5.7-6.1 yet the GS350awd model obtains a 5.3 second time which is very hard to believe. It must mean the v-8 is very inferior to this v6 and I don't understand why it would be so inferior. The only explanation might be awd traction and the gearing but neither engine is exactly putting out huge amounts of horsepower where traction would be an issue on a rwd car. If Lexus is getting such better acceleration figures mainly from awd then why not just make all the F models awd so they achieve better acceleration numbers. If that 5.3 second figure is completely accurate then I am impressed but I have not heard of any other mags getting similiar times. Does anybody have figures for the rwd GS350? I would think they would be better with it being lighter and not having the drag and power sapping awd system.
As for other mags, R&T is the only one to test the AWD GS 350...
12-13-07, 12:01 PM
#25
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I'm not saying that the 4.6 didn't belong on that list, I'm just saying I can see how it didn't make it. Regardless of peak power ratings, you also have to consider throttle response - for example... the Audi 2.0t motor doesn't look that exciting on paper just looking at the peak power ratings, but it's a blast to drive once you're behind the wheel. There's just some motor characteristics that extend well beyond xxx hp/tq@xxxx rpm.
I don't really think there's any credibility to the horsepower per liter measurement either. The displacement of a motor is only one of many variables that can affect power output. What about horsepower per valve, horsepower per bore/stroke inches, horsepower per valvetrain weight, horsepower per cam, horsepower per cam profile/aggressiveness, horsepower per redline rpm, etc, etc. I just get annoyed with people who, for example, look at the Corvette's 6.2L V8 and call it "cheating" or "redneck engineering". Well here's the facts - the Vette 6.2 is a very light weight motor with compact dimensions (due to being OHV), low cost of production, good NVH (for a sports car), good reliability, low cost of repairs, and great gas mileage. So if big displacement is cheating, I sure don't understand why more manufacturers don't "cheat" like that...
I don't really think there's any credibility to the horsepower per liter measurement either. The displacement of a motor is only one of many variables that can affect power output. What about horsepower per valve, horsepower per bore/stroke inches, horsepower per valvetrain weight, horsepower per cam, horsepower per cam profile/aggressiveness, horsepower per redline rpm, etc, etc. I just get annoyed with people who, for example, look at the Corvette's 6.2L V8 and call it "cheating" or "redneck engineering". Well here's the facts - the Vette 6.2 is a very light weight motor with compact dimensions (due to being OHV), low cost of production, good NVH (for a sports car), good reliability, low cost of repairs, and great gas mileage. So if big displacement is cheating, I sure don't understand why more manufacturers don't "cheat" like that...
There was an article in Sports Car International how Benz is missing the point entirely by continuing to just make bigger and bigger engines, with more power and more power and fuel economy is the same or worse. That is not advancement, that is just making things bigger.
12-13-07, 12:18 PM
#26
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I didn't want to ruffle feathers but I did think the 4.6 should have been on it or how close was it. In the LS it has .9 liters LESS than Benz 5.5 liter but makes only 2 less hp. Its fuel economy is tops in class and its used in the GS as well. However, its performance is not heads and shoulders above the 7/S so I can understand it NOT making the list.
And there is nothing special about the 342 hp 4.6L in the GS460.
12-13-07, 12:20 PM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
There was an article in Sports Car International how Benz is missing the point entirely by continuing to just make bigger and bigger engines, with more power and more power and fuel economy is the same or worse. That is not advancement, that is just making things bigger.
Last edited by gengar; 12-13-07 at 12:28 PM.
12-13-07, 12:36 PM
#29
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IMO they're not missing the point so much as it's simply been their MO for the last decade. Obviously I didn't mind their 3.6, 4.3, 3.2k, etc., but then they started moving to 5.5, 5.5k, and now 6.2. (I'll give them a pass on the 6.0TT.) I'm not saying they're not great engines - the new 6.2 blows away the similar-displacement Corvette obviously - but the emphasis on continually increased displacement and increased weight is one reason I'm no longer a fan.
The BMW 750 is actually a 4.8, it should be the 748, but that doesn't sound good.
I agree with the decision to change to 750. I find the name G37 repulsing. That is an odd letter/name combo. Didn't read the guidelines (thanks) and we have already spoken about the 4.6 in the GS 460 in spades as we simply do not know why they detuned it. Silly Lexus.....
12-13-07, 12:52 PM
#30
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Why is the CTS engine on there as well? That engine is again, no marvel and does not beat the Lexus 3.5 liter.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
The 335 and IS 350 are faster and more fuel efficient that the 3.7 VQ. Those engines are also used in more vehicles. Again, I would have left the 3.5 on there.
Not saying at all they are bad engines, they are good engines. I expected this list to be the BEST engines.
As for blaming weight, I don't buy it. The 4000 lbs 3.5 liter GS 350 AWD meets and beats them all.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4851
and the 5.3-second 0-60 time we recorded
That shows a great engine, to overcome the weight of the bigger GS and the AWD system.
The 335 and IS 350 are faster and more fuel efficient that the 3.7 VQ. Those engines are also used in more vehicles. Again, I would have left the 3.5 on there.
Not saying at all they are bad engines, they are good engines. I expected this list to be the BEST engines.
The fact of the matter is, the 3.7L engine is still an iteration of the VQ. If they didnt feel that the engine was still worthy of being there, then it wouldnt.
Last edited by Hypnotik; 12-13-07 at 12:55 PM.