Congress Set to Boost Fuel Economy Limit
12-19-07 | 10:02 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
Anyone know how CAFE works in terms of 'requiring' manufacturers to meet it?
I think it's the average fuel economy of all the vehicles they sell, but what if they can't make their massive trailer towing pickup get anywhere close but it's a runaway seller because everyone else abandoned making them? Does that mean THEY will be punished (fined?) for producing something people want?
I think it's the average fuel economy of all the vehicles they sell, but what if they can't make their massive trailer towing pickup get anywhere close but it's a runaway seller because everyone else abandoned making them? Does that mean THEY will be punished (fined?) for producing something people want?
One more thing, even though W through ethanol into the mix don't confuse CAFE with dependence on foreign oil. The last reading I did, ethanol gives worse fuel economy than dino fuel so it will make hitting higher CAFE numbers more difficult if they start testing with something approaching E85 or E90.
12-19-07 | 10:15 AM
#17
Pole Position
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,465
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
Well this has been signed and we are now stuck with it. I think this is simply a terrible "solution". It sells well to the majority of the public but doesn't put the burden where it belongs.
This isn't the problem. If small cars were selling do you think automakers wouldn't be building more and more of them?!? We are the problem. We continue to buy large gas slurping cars. Why shouldn't I be able to buy what I want? Why does someone need to tell me what I can buy? If you want to "encourage" or influence me to buy smaller then go ahead and implement a gas tax already! But that wouldn't be popular, would it? Oh... I use more so I have to pay more... boo hoo.... woe is me. 
It's my right to have cheap gas! 
We are so spoiled and don't want to take responsibility for the hard changes that need to be made. With this we have a scapegoat, the easy way out and no real solution.
Automakers do need this push. Otherwise, they make very slow progress. Particularly the US automakers.
Toyota and Honda will have no problem attaining these numbers but GM, Ford, and Chrysler will struggle.
We are definately going to see less big trucks and SUV's when this comes to pass. Good.
This isn't about the automakers. We will see fewer big trucks and SUVs but weren't we already on that trend with higher gas prices? Haven't we heard month after month of double digit declines in many large pickups and SUVs? Now you don't have a choice.
Bob Lutz once said that this was like trying to cure obesity by telling clothing manufacturers that they could only manufacture small size dresses. I agree. Continuing with the analogy, perhaps we will see more innovation in diet drugs as a result but it certainly seems to defy logic.
I'm very bitter today, this is not a good day for auto enthusiasts.
It's my right to have cheap gas! We are so spoiled and don't want to take responsibility for the hard changes that need to be made. With this we have a scapegoat, the easy way out and no real solution.
Automakers do need this push. Otherwise, they make very slow progress. Particularly the US automakers.
Toyota and Honda will have no problem attaining these numbers but GM, Ford, and Chrysler will struggle.
We are definately going to see less big trucks and SUV's when this comes to pass. Good.
Bob Lutz once said that this was like trying to cure obesity by telling clothing manufacturers that they could only manufacture small size dresses. I agree. Continuing with the analogy, perhaps we will see more innovation in diet drugs as a result but it certainly seems to defy logic.
I'm very bitter today, this is not a good day for auto enthusiasts.
12-19-07 | 10:17 AM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
From: WA
While I do advocate higher gas mileage for cars, I do not believe that it is the federal governments responsibility to force businesses to do so. Let the market decide, politicians are not cut out to make business deicions that free trade and the market is supposed to decide.
Last edited by mavericck; 12-19-07 at 10:23 AM.
12-19-07 | 10:35 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
There's something not quite satisfying about the circular "I should be able to buy a vehicle with whatever mileage I am willing to feed" but "Aren't we all craving higher mileage vehicles anyway?" I prefer to have less government intervention, not more, but occasionally somebody has to be the adult in the room. Exactly how this plays out in fact will have to be seen. But in one respect, I don't necessarily have a lot of sympathy for the big three, they have been able to keep CAFE increases practically non existent for decades with the "People won't want to pay for the cars that achieve such mileage" of "People really, really like their Suburbans". Every time I see some woman in a Suburban trying to dock the thing in the mall parking lot with maybe one kid inside because she likes to be up high when driving, ridiculous whether she can afford the gas or not. For the vast majority of cars, their real world combined mileage is in that 18 - 22 mpg range and I wouldn't mind being able to buy something that was up closer to 30 without getting a Prius.
12-19-07 | 02:19 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,577
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Anyone know how CAFE works in terms of 'requiring' manufacturers to meet it?
I think it's the average fuel economy of all the vehicles they sell, but what if they can't make their massive trailer towing pickup get anywhere close but it's a runaway seller because everyone else abandoned making them? Does that mean THEY will be punished (fined?) for producing something people want?
I think it's the average fuel economy of all the vehicles they sell, but what if they can't make their massive trailer towing pickup get anywhere close but it's a runaway seller because everyone else abandoned making them? Does that mean THEY will be punished (fined?) for producing something people want?
In fact, it was a rather carefully guarded secret for years. Many people (including many police departments, of course) bought thousands upon thousands of Crown Vics, thinking that they were buying an "All-American" car. They weren't.
12-19-07 | 04:05 PM
#21
Pole Position
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,465
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
There's something not quite satisfying about the circular "I should be able to buy a vehicle with whatever mileage I am willing to feed" but "Aren't we all craving higher mileage vehicles anyway?" I prefer to have less government intervention, not more, but occasionally somebody has to be the adult in the room.
The reason the argument you cite is circular is that there *is* cause and effect between the price of gas and the cars that are sold. But we aren't really in it to solve the problem but rather to act like we are while we patch up with a band-aide.
12-19-07 | 04:49 PM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,577
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Taxes on fuel are only part of the root of the problem. Another, major part of it is that a lot of people simply drive too fast. Fuel consumption, of course, depends on many factors, but in general rises rapidly after about 60-65 MPH or so.
12-19-07 | 06:57 PM
#23
The whole Ethanol thing seems to be waste. The prices of other things has risen in order to produce Ethanol. Lets see how the other alternative fuel options compare and fair up to Ethanol.
12-19-07 | 07:09 PM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
And the adult thing to do is get to the root of the problem. To curb fuel consumption you tax the heck out of it and the free market will take care of the rest. Raising taxes on gas takes far more guts and is much more "adult" than what the government has done.
The reason the argument you cite is circular is that there *is* cause and effect between the price of gas and the cars that are sold. But we aren't really in it to solve the problem but rather to act like we are while we patch up with a band-aide.
The reason the argument you cite is circular is that there *is* cause and effect between the price of gas and the cars that are sold. But we aren't really in it to solve the problem but rather to act like we are while we patch up with a band-aide.
12-20-07 | 04:21 AM
#25
Pole Position
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 1
From: Coral Springs, Fl
Manufacturers will continue to build more powerful, yet, more fuel efficient engines. Who would have dreamed that there would be 500HP corvettes running around that get 22 MPG. It may be hard to believe but 20 years from now you're average Honda Accord will have 300+ HP and get better than 30 MPG. Car makers, I believe, should focus on weight reduction technology and aerodynamics.
12-20-07 | 07:15 AM
#26
12-20-07 | 12:00 PM
#28
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 0
From: MD
Manufacturers will continue to build more powerful, yet, more fuel efficient engines. Who would have dreamed that there would be 500HP corvettes running around that get 22 MPG. It may be hard to believe but 20 years from now you're average Honda Accord will have 300+ HP and get better than 30 MPG. Car makers, I believe, should focus on weight reduction technology and aerodynamics.
GM: Emission law may hamper muscle cars
Detroit performance cars endangered by new, stricter regulations
DETROIT - When General Motors Corp. pulls the cover off a new supercharged version of the Corvette at the Detroit auto show next month, it will unveil a performance car designed to rival or better even the fastest, most expensive exotic cars from Europe.
But the Corvette's chief engineer says the 2009 Corvette ZR1 may be the last in a long tradition of Detroit performance cars, endangered by stronger federal fuel economy regulations and limits on carbon dioxide emissions.
"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence," Tadge Juechter said at a recent showing of the ZR1, which is designed to have around 620 horsepower.
President Bush on Wednesday signed into law legislation that will bring more fuel-efficient vehicles into auto showrooms and require wider use of ethanol, calling it "a major step" toward energy independence and easing global warming.
The legislation requires automakers to increase fuel efficiency by 40 percent to an industry average 35 miles per gallon by 2020.
But Juechter said to sell one of the Chevrolet supercars, GM would need to offset that with cars that get 45 mpg.
"It could really be an endangered species," he said.
Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst with the consulting firm Global Insight, said predicting the death of the muscle car might be premature.
The Corvette, he said, is fuel efficient when compared with its competitors. Although fuel economy figures weren't released for the ZR1, the current 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6 gets an estimated 15 mpg in the city and 24 on the highway, according to GM.
The ZR1, he said, gets around the same mileage as a Chevrolet pickup truck, and GM won't be getting out of the pickup business because of gas mileage standards.
"I think it's a little over-dramatization," Bragman said. "GM wants to sell big, high-performance, fun cars. And typically that's what Americans want to buy."
Performance cars of the future may be powered by smaller engines or electric motors, he said, but they won't die.
The ZR1 will have a top speed of more than 200 mph, driven by an all-new supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 engine. It has 19-inch front and 20-inch rear wheels and a suspension tuned to provide extraordinary cornering grip, GM said.
The car has a carbon-fiber hood, fenders and roof for weight savings, and its huge carbon-ceramic brake rotors give it great stopping power, the company said.
The ZR1 will cost around $100,000 and probably will go on sale next summer.
© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
');if(window.print){window.print()**else{alert('To print his page press Ctrl-P on your keyboard \nor choose print from your browser or device after clicking OK');****URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22340556/
Detroit performance cars endangered by new, stricter regulations
DETROIT - When General Motors Corp. pulls the cover off a new supercharged version of the Corvette at the Detroit auto show next month, it will unveil a performance car designed to rival or better even the fastest, most expensive exotic cars from Europe.
But the Corvette's chief engineer says the 2009 Corvette ZR1 may be the last in a long tradition of Detroit performance cars, endangered by stronger federal fuel economy regulations and limits on carbon dioxide emissions.
"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence," Tadge Juechter said at a recent showing of the ZR1, which is designed to have around 620 horsepower.
President Bush on Wednesday signed into law legislation that will bring more fuel-efficient vehicles into auto showrooms and require wider use of ethanol, calling it "a major step" toward energy independence and easing global warming.
The legislation requires automakers to increase fuel efficiency by 40 percent to an industry average 35 miles per gallon by 2020.
But Juechter said to sell one of the Chevrolet supercars, GM would need to offset that with cars that get 45 mpg.
"It could really be an endangered species," he said.
Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst with the consulting firm Global Insight, said predicting the death of the muscle car might be premature.
The Corvette, he said, is fuel efficient when compared with its competitors. Although fuel economy figures weren't released for the ZR1, the current 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6 gets an estimated 15 mpg in the city and 24 on the highway, according to GM.
The ZR1, he said, gets around the same mileage as a Chevrolet pickup truck, and GM won't be getting out of the pickup business because of gas mileage standards.
"I think it's a little over-dramatization," Bragman said. "GM wants to sell big, high-performance, fun cars. And typically that's what Americans want to buy."
Performance cars of the future may be powered by smaller engines or electric motors, he said, but they won't die.
The ZR1 will have a top speed of more than 200 mph, driven by an all-new supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 engine. It has 19-inch front and 20-inch rear wheels and a suspension tuned to provide extraordinary cornering grip, GM said.
The car has a carbon-fiber hood, fenders and roof for weight savings, and its huge carbon-ceramic brake rotors give it great stopping power, the company said.
The ZR1 will cost around $100,000 and probably will go on sale next summer.
© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
');if(window.print){window.print()**else{alert('To print his page press Ctrl-P on your keyboard \nor choose print from your browser or device after clicking OK');****URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22340556/
12-20-07 | 12:28 PM
#30
The greatest part about this; is that the EPA slapped California across the face and told them they can't enforce different standards than the Federal Government imposes. I thought it was awesome!
Does the law enforce the mpg numbers or just dump a big gas guzzler tax onto vehicles that don't comply?
Does the law enforce the mpg numbers or just dump a big gas guzzler tax onto vehicles that don't comply?