Originally Posted by knihc2008

To be fair, I assume its supposed to be an Acura over here, and globally, though I have to agree with Mike's assessment on Acura's global stature.

And we know nothing about the car, it might be a full on super car, it might be not; no one said it was going to be a grand tourer. I don't see how this is any different than a front engine, RWD Lexus.

You guys say you want a new NSX in the mold of the old one but the fact is that no one bought it. I'm not saying it was a bad car; I love the old NSX, I love it to this day. But the people with the kind of money to buy cars like that don't want to blow it on a 6-cylinder engine low horsepower car. They want to blow it on a faster, bigger engined car. It's not about how good the car itself is, its about perception. A lot of you will mention the Porsche 911; I'm sorry but like it or not, the NSX just doesn't have the 911's cachet and *name*. Again, I know it sucks. I love the NSX. And I do wish they would just make something like the HSC concept; that car was perfect, and Honda is all about light weight, low HP brilliant handling sports cars. But I just don't think there is a business case for another 90k 6-cylinder mid engine super car for Honda/Acura.

Why they can't go the R8 route and make a brilliant V8-powered mid engine sports car for around 100k is beyond me though. Would you seriously consider a 6 cyl 350 hp NSX for the same price as the V8 420 hp Audi R8? I couldn't, but a 400 hp 8 cyl NSX would certainly be more appealing, at the 100k mark. Could be just the image boost that Acura DESPERATELY needs.

Making this car front engine is a huge mistake imo but it worked for GTR, seems to be working for LF-A, maybe there's a method to this madness.

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

While LExus and Acura are both from Japan, you simply cannot compare the 2 brands, they are on total opposite ends of the spectrum. Lexus is a tier 1 brand and #92 on the most known brands in the world. Acura was just found to be lowest in the United States with branding.

I am not going to go further its obvious. Lexus has proven it CAN sell a 100k sedan, which is simply territory reserved for Europe. LS 600h L sales are 300% past projections. The LF-A is the next step to move Lexus further upward in a LOOOOOOONNG 20 year strategy of multiple home runs, triples and doubles with the rare swing and miss.

Lexus has the strategy to move upward and the results to show they can move upward. Their management is top notch.

Acura moves downward in strategy and has not proven they can sell past 40-50k.

I've said it many times before and I don't know why people just act like its not the truth. IMAGE and PERCEPTION and TOTAL BRAND are key when you sell higher priced vehicles. These people are clearly successful people and they want to be associated with brands that are successful and highly desirable. People buy Lexus/BMW/Benz "just because". They buy the newest vehicles they offer "b/c its the newest thing they got". The brands worked hard to earn this type of justification.

Acura has done a **** poor job building their brand for any new NSX. Their flagship is a complete dud. They then bring 2 4 cylinders in the TSX and RDX (good cars but sub entry level). The NSX was canned in what 2002. Its 2008 and what have they done to move UPWARD, so the NSX would be a natural extension?

Nothing

The TL and MDX has done very well for them and continue to do so. However that won't cut it.

Over 50k, you have to build THE BRAND up. You can have the greatest car in the world, if prospective buyers do not RESPECT the brand, it will sell like ice cream to eskimos.

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

The NSX was canned in what 2002. Its 2008 and what have they done to move UPWARD, so the NSX would be a natural extension?

Nothing

Originally Posted by UDel

Here we go again, Sicklex Lexus is not that different from Acura or on a whole different level then Acura like you try to say they are.

Originally Posted by UDel

Here we go again, Sicklex Lexus is not that different from Acura or on a whole different level then Acura like you try to say they are.

I cannot take the rest of this post serious when you and others simply REFUSE the OBVIOUS. The two brands are on TOTAL OPPOSITE ENDS of the spectrum. Deal with it.

I know you are a huge Lexus fan and dislike Acura very much but most people who are not Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura fans don't see a huge difference between Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti.

100% inaccurate. Lexus by far is recognized as a leader in luxury and has the awards to prove it. You can combine Acura and Infiniti's awards and review wins and they are not CLOSE to Lexus. The biggest kudos to Lexus a lot of times is not when they are in a review, yet you read "LExus like in ride", "near Lexus in quiet" etc etc.

Acura is NEVER USED AS A MEASURING BAR.

Just BECAUSE the 3 are from Japan, does not make them near equals. In contrast, the big 3 in Germany worldwide, are equals, Audi, Benz, BMW. In AMERICA, it is BMW and Benz and only a fool would throw Audi into that mix.


Yes, Lexus is more successful in selling larger expensive lux sedans then Acura but the only reason is because Acura does not offer a large lux sedan right now and Lexus does have more prestige but it is not that huge of difference.

You have to be joking b/c you are a JOKE without a premium luxury sedan, you are a stepping stone to luxury.
On top of that, one brand has ZERO RWD or V-8s, the other has 5 V-8s and RWD.
Both has on road SUVs, Lexus has off-road SUVs.
Lexus has no 4 cylinder outside the IS 220d, which is the torquiest diesel in class.
Acura has no diesels. Acura is not in Europe.
Lexus has a hardtop convert, Acura has no coupe.
Lexus has hybrids, Acura isn't even the most fuel efficient luxury brand.
Lexus now has a "F" brand to compete with AMG/Benz etc. Acura no answer

I could go on and on but if you can't see the two are not even close, then I don't know how to open your eyes.

Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are all upmarket Japanese brands that generally sell vehicles that are better made, more reliable, and less expensive then the competition and often share parts/platforms with their base brands and most people don't see a huge difference. I know you are going to reply with how right now Acura shares platforms with Accords and don't offer v8s or rwd platforms as of now but Lexus and Infiniti also share platforms with Toyota and Nissan and Lexus top selling models that account for over half of their total sales are the Lexus ES and RX which are also based on fwd Camry platforms and use Toyota v6s. There is nothing wrong with sharing platforms and basic engines as long as the product turns out good. Aside from the LS the other expensive Lexus models out now don't sell very well either and well below the European competition. If Lexus did not sell the camry based ES and RX Lexus sales numbers would not be impressive and well below the competition.

You cannot take the ES and RX out of Lexus sales and say sales are down because you have to take the TL and MDX out and do the same thing, if you are trying to compare apples to apples. I have never said platform sharing is bad but it needs to stop at the entry level and not have your entire lineup based on your parent company. Interestingly, the Tier I brand, Lexus doesn't do that and you want to argue its fine. Acura/Infiniti continue to do so and they are a step below as a luxury marque. COnicidence? I think not.


People blindly buy BMW and Mercedes regardless of price and reliability just for the brand. People generally do not buy Lexus regardless of price and reliability. I guarantee if Lexus were more expensive or priced the same as the Euro competition and no longer reliable or only just as reliable as the European competition then more expensive Lexus models would sell very poorly. Most people do not blindly buy Lexus vehicles just to have a Lexus but more so because of a less expensive price, reliability, quality, reviews, better dealership experience then the European competition. People do blindly buy unreliable overpriced Mercedes and BMWs in droves just for the brand and to say they own a car from that brand.

If you look at Lexus MSRP, it has climbed to a level higher than Audi and nearly on par with the Germans when they compete.Lexus has proven that people want the PRODUCT and feel the PRICE is worth it. IN comparsion, Acura has the "value" strategy which is an oxymoron. Lexus has ALWAYS given you the SAME or EQUIVALENT product and sometimes, yes (especially initially) for less money.
For example the IS 300 that was true 3 series competition had the essentials, RWD and a I-6. Acura sells you a FWD and I-4 and calls it the same thing. That is not value, that is a different car.

You keep using how Acura was rated last on a survey but you fail to mention it was just one meaningless Consumer reports survey of what a couple hundred or a few thousand people. Just one survey is not the end all and be all of brand recognition and ranking. Other surveys have Acura highly rated and regarded. A consumer reports survey or old Forbes article or whatever does not really mean anything. If Acura was rated so low then they would not be anywhere near as successful today as they are and Acura does not sell cheap vehicles. Acuras are highly regarded and sell very well, the TL was the top selling luxury car in the US for a couple years, that survey clearly means nothing. It was simply one brand recognition survey most likely filled out by a bunch of non car people who do not know the difference between an inline 6 or v6 and how much hp their own car has.

You do understand Acura sales are down 15% for the second year in a row right. Sorry but Acura is mentioned with the Honda faithful (and a faithful bunch they are) and simply is ignored otherwise. I cannot remember the last time anyone asked me about an Acura. The TL is the only one that generates any interest and HONDA THEMSELVES stated the TL is cross-shopped with the ACCORD more than any other car.

Right now Acura is in a bit of a slump and not up to where they were in 90's and alot of Acura fans are pretty disappointed especially with a ffont engined NSX, RL refresh, 09 TSX not getting a bump in power but there are new things on the way. Before you say Acuras are just fancy Accords it was Acura who sold a Ferrari fighting mid engine exotic supercar that was the most expensive Japanese car available in the US up until a few years ago, even more expensive then any Lexus and the Legend was always based on its own platform and did not share a engine with any Honda. The original RL was based on its own platform too. The Vigor had its own unique 5 cylinder that was not available on any US market Hondas and Acuras always had a look of their own. Acura were/are not just Honda rebadges while Lexus was/are totally seperate from Toyota but were just going to beat a dead horse.

With competition as think as ever and with them basically having a drought in the late 1990s, this is no time for ANOTHER slump. Infiniti just ousold Acura for the first time in HISTORY. Acura can't worry about Lexus, they need to worry about Infiniti. Infiniti is showing focus in product, design and is doing a better job than Acura. The original RL is the definition of failure as the Vigor, Acura doesn't even MENTION THEM on their own website. Its like the 1990s didn't happen outside the NSX and Legend.

The fact is Acura nor Lexus has the brand cachet to sell cars close to 200K, most brands don't have that cachet. That is not an insult to Acura or Lexus it is just a fact.

No, that is your BIASED opinion trying to lump Acura and Lexus together, which. Here are the FACTS you ignore'
-the MDX is the only Acura that has a price over 40k with options that has sold relatively well (and ANY SUV sells).
-The NSX while superb, sold like crap after its initial year as an Acura and sold like crap as a Honda overseas b/c of price. People scoff at it.
-The RL has NEVER sold well, it has always been at least 45k, it is 50k now and buyers laugh at it.

IN CONTRAST, THE FACTS
-LExus sold 60k SC 430s with 6k deposits when it debuted at the autoshow in 2001. It sold out its first year of 12k units and continues to do so at 10k units.
-The GX is a 50k SUV and has always met/beat sales expectations. (this is a lexus vehicle that still surprises me with how well it does)
-The GS is 3rd in sales and we BOTH can agree, it is not the home run like the 2GS. The GS has many opportunities, yet people BUY it.
-The LX was 65k, now 75-85k and with $4 gas prices, you CANNOT FIND ONE on dealer lots. People are fighting for them.
-The LS now has a base over 60k and gets to 120k loaded and its the best selling in class and AGAIN, the over 100k 600h L is 300% past projections.

So for you to say, Acura/Lexus can't sell a 200k car is foolish. Acura cannot sell ANYTHING over 50k. Lexus has sold multiple vehicles over 50k and then 60k then 70k, now over 100k and people buy them.

You see Lexus managment is not stupid like Acura management. Acura wants to dumb down the brand with 4 cylinder SUvs and sedans, have a failure for a 50k car, then MAGICALLY JUMP to over 150k??????

NO BUSINESS CAN DO THAT. NONE.


In contrast, Lexus took its time, it has been 20 years in the making, moving up and up and up, with hardly a mistake and BUILDING THE BRAND to be respected in that price range.

One does not SIMPLY build a 100k car and have them bought up. DOesn't work like that.

No matter how much you are impressed with Lexus they still sell based on reliability, price, value,quality, dealership experience, past experience. Buyers buying cars for 170-200K are no longer really concerned with reliability, value, price, etc and buy mainly on brand prestige/history in which Lexus and Acura and most car brands simply don't have at that price point. BMW does not sell cars at that price point and Mercedes can't really sell much at that price point-Maybach and SLR have been failures. Lexus may have credibility with luxury cars but they have no credibility with high performance sports cars and when people think of Lexus the last thing they think of are sports cars, Acura at least has credibility with having made and sold an excellent mid engine exotic sports car that is highly regarded and legendary. I just think Lexus and Acura should not try to jump into that market right now especially the way the economy is and if they want to eventually sell cars in that price range they should build up to it with a 105-115K sports car first. To entice buyers at 170K-180K the LFA and NSX are going to have to be absolutely stellar to lure buyers from Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche, etc.


Outside of you continuing to bunch Acura/Lexus together here, I do agree with the sentiment "IMAGE/PANACHE/BRAND" sells at that price. Is there is possibility Lexus can fail? Hell yes. However, just browsing Ferrari chat/6 speed online and seeing how many people there have or had a Lexus, I think they have a decent chance of going AGAIN where no Japanese luxury brand has gone before.

Originally Posted by SilverBull

One thing about the Porsche is it only has a 6 cylinder engine also doesn't it? So comparing it to a NSX is the right comparison. The NSX just never had a turbo version to compete with the higher HP cars.

Originally Posted by UberNoob

i think Acura wants to target the NSX against the LF-A more than any other car
thats why they thought about front engined setup

or maybe they want more power so have to go with front engine as they cant fit any decently powerful engine in the mid?