Honda confirms NSX for 2010
05-01-08, 04:56 PM
#61
Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.
05-01-08, 05:57 PM
#62
Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.
05-01-08, 06:08 PM
#63
Yeah, Lexus had done the pricing incrementally, the $120,000 LS 600h L is now the most expensive vehicle exported from Japan. Definitely the LF-A will be more than that, but how much is anyone's guess. At the high end the numbers become dizzying, like the humongous range in prices from the S550 to the S63 AMG.
With the NSX, the original deserves a LOT of respect, the Japanese supercar which defined Honda's engineering ability and gave Acura a halo car. I like what others have suggested in this thread, why not make the next NSX an evolution of the first in some way. However, if they are to price themselves into the stratosphere, that may be too different, despite the massive range at the high end.
Specifically, I'm wondering about reports that the first NSX development/production was very expensive and not profitable--and what it did for Acura. At the time, IIRC the Legend was doing well as the flagship. The NSX had a nice halo effect, but the rest of the range was more important anyhow--and the step-up in price was not as huge (initial 'modest' price by comparison). Now, Acura is arguably not doing as well and a supercar still won't fix it. But with their highest model, the RL not able to command $60K very easily, it would be too massive a gulf to have the next NSX command over twice that much IMO.
With the NSX, the original deserves a LOT of respect, the Japanese supercar which defined Honda's engineering ability and gave Acura a halo car. I like what others have suggested in this thread, why not make the next NSX an evolution of the first in some way. However, if they are to price themselves into the stratosphere, that may be too different, despite the massive range at the high end.
Specifically, I'm wondering about reports that the first NSX development/production was very expensive and not profitable--and what it did for Acura. At the time, IIRC the Legend was doing well as the flagship. The NSX had a nice halo effect, but the rest of the range was more important anyhow--and the step-up in price was not as huge (initial 'modest' price by comparison). Now, Acura is arguably not doing as well and a supercar still won't fix it. But with their highest model, the RL not able to command $60K very easily, it would be too massive a gulf to have the next NSX command over twice that much IMO.
05-01-08, 06:09 PM
#64
Lexus Champion
I think there are good points in this thread in regards to luxury branding and perceived prestige, but these things can be overcome by the quality of the product itself. Take the GT-R for example: does anyone care if it's a Nissan instead of an Infiniti (in regards to prestige, not dealer service)? Granted most Infiniti purchasers aren't buying their cars based on brand name alone, but I think it's still a valid point. Much like the original NSX, the GT-R's performance is beyond expectation, and the proverbial bar has been forever raised. That's why the GT-R is universally loved, despite the Nissan emblem and lack of brand prestige. But if Honda is looking to sell a car at $180k, it had better be something beyond extraordinary.
And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?
Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.
Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.
And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?
Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.
Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.
Last edited by pvmike1; 05-01-08 at 06:29 PM.
05-01-08, 10:44 PM
#65
People were paying around $110K+ for the original NSX when it first came out. The MSRP was in the mid $60K range so some paid double. The 2005 NSX MSRP was $89K. If, Honda were to have built a real 2nd Gen NSX based on a mid engine platform with HP and performance matching or besting todays exotics it could warrant an asking price of $100K. $150+ no way though.
05-02-08, 12:55 AM
#66
Lexus Fanatic
Both brands are definitely not in total opposite ends of the spectrum, I don't know how you can possibly come up with that and shows your huge pro Lexus/anti Acura bias. If saying and thinking that makes you feel better for owning and being a Lexus fan and able to completely dismiss and llook down on Acura and people who own and like Acuras then that is fine but pretty out of touch with reality. Is Lexus considered a more prestigious luxury automaker then Acura, yes to most people. Is it a huge difference or a whole other level, certainly not. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum would be extremely cheap small econo car companies like Kia/Suzuki compared to super expensive exotic small companies Bugatti/Rolls Royce/Bently/Ferrari, Lamborgini. Lexus and Acura fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Not total opposite ends.
In another comment you were simply naming everything Lexus has and Acura doesn't like Lexus sets the standard for all types of vehicles and options that a luxury maker should offer. Not every car company has to come out with pretty much the same type of car or copy what other automakers offer almost to a tee to compete in segments. Their is nothing wrong with the size of the vehicle being slightly larger/smaller/wider or have different engine/drivetrain options then its competition. They all don't have to offer the same thing or be the same type of car.
You say Acura has no coupes but they have sold coupes they just don't have one right now, they had a Legend coupe, CL coupe, Integra could be considered a coupe/hatchback, NSX was a 2 door sports car. How many coupes or 2 doors has Lexus offered, one and the current boulevard cruiser SC430 is in a bad need of a redesign and is pretty much ignored by the automotive press and far below the competition. I know alot of people who think it is extremly odd looking and more of a chick car. It may have sold well when it came out but how could it not, it was the only Japanese luxury convertable available and there are not many other cars in that segment, Germany had the SL and Jag had the poor selling XK. Thats really it,people had little choice so just because it sold pretty well in the first few years is nothing to be all that proud of. If there was alot of different competition in that segment then maybe that would be different.
The last generations of Legends also sold in the 40's and were not that much less expensive then LS at the time and they sold pretty well so Acura can sell sedans in the 40's and over especially considering inflation where that would be more or less like selling well into the 50's back in the mid 90's.
You say Lexus has an F brand to compete with AMG, M but it has only recently come out with this, the ISF has only been available for a few months. I give Lexus props for offering such a car but time will tell if it is truly successful and it is only something they did very recently. You say Acura has no deisals but Lexus in the US does not either and Acura is slated to get one soon in the TSX.
Lexus prices are not on par with BMW/Mercedes, Lexus cars sell for far below what the Germans charge, where do you get that Lexus prices are on par with BMW/Merc? Have you seen how much an E class/5 series cost when similiarly optioned and configured to GS models, the Germans are way more expensive. The LS460 starts in the 60s LS460L at around 72K. A base S class is like 87.5 and once optioned similiarly to a LS is a good deal over 90K and easily get to well over 120K when adding larger/stronger engines. They are not even close. Loaded 1 series which is a notch below the IS in my opinion are still in the mid 40's. Load 3 series can go in the upper 50's. The IS and ES are much less expensive then then similiar 3 series. I for one am glad Lexus does not way overprice their cars and I will give them no respect if they do. Why would you want to pay more for the same car, just for an ego thing that they can be as overpriced as the German competiton?
The LS600l is selling in very small numbers too, just because a couple thousand are buying it does not mean it is a hit. It is the only large lux sedan to offer a hybrid which means it has no competition and can appeal to the greenies who think it is somehow a responsible vehicle even though it is anything but a fuel saving economical "green" vehicle. A four door lux sedan is a much easier sell and appeals to a ton more people then a 2 seat mid engine exotic that really only appeals to a small number of hardcore enthusiasts. Just because Lexus LS600l sold more then expectations does not mean much if expectations were super low. Lexus projected 2K per year which is extremely low and probrably done on purpose so if it broke sales goals it would look like a big success when it isn't. They sold 6095 worldwide which was over expectation but not a huge number especially compared to regular LS sales. For Nov07 sales Lexus sold 170 LS hybrids compared to 2668 regular LS units which is only 6.4% of total LS sales, that is not that impressive and does not mean people are buying 100K Lexus vehicles in droves, the vast majority buy regular LS priced in the 70's. Lexus is selling these hybrids to a niche group of wealthy eco buyers and I doubt that trend will be long term as most know the hybrid LS is slower then the regular one and does not really get any better gas mileage even though it cost 30K more and uses more resources to build. If Acura came out with a car like that you would be critisizing it up and down.
As far as Acura sales being down, pretty much all luxury sales are down in 08 including Lexus mainly do to the economy and gas prices. Everywhere I looked which there was not that much info showed Lexus sales down and often percentage wise below Acura sales. For March 08 luxury sales were down 15% and Lexus sales fell 18% another source said Acura was down 8% and Lexus down 9.3%, not exactly sure what month it was but it was recently. Nov 07 lux sales were down 7% BMW,Merc were up but Lexus and Acura were down Acura down 15%, Lexus down 6.9%.
The one important fact you have to consider with Acura sales being down is that all Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles and have replacements or major updates due soon. Lexus on the other hand came out with the new ES, IS, and LS all well after the Acura competing models came out. The GS also got a new much more powerful v6, hybrid, and larger more powerful v8 well after the TL and RL came out. Most of the competition have came out with new or heavily updated models while Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles so that partially explains Acuras decline in sales, once the new TSX, TL, and RL(not talking about the horrible refresh of course
) but a new RL come out sales will go back up. The TSX has only recently become available and sales figures will not be available for awhile.All right I am done with this for now, it ended up being way longer then I intended again
and we are just not going to agree on this subject although we do seem to agree or see eye to eye on most other things 
. Another nice long Acure/Lexus argument
Last edited by UDel; 05-02-08 at 01:00 AM.
05-02-08, 09:03 AM
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
We always argue this Acura/Lexus thing so I am not going to do another long post addressing everything you said because its been said before but I will comment on a few things( I predict it is going to be alot longer then I intend but oh well).
Both brands are definitely not in total opposite ends of the spectrum, I don't know how you can possibly come up with that and shows your huge pro Lexus/anti Acura bias. If saying and thinking that makes you feel better for owning and being a Lexus fan and able to completely dismiss and llook down on Acura and people who own and like Acuras then that is fine but pretty out of touch with reality. Is Lexus considered a more prestigious luxury automaker then Acura, yes to most people. Is it a huge difference or a whole other level, certainly not. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum would be extremely cheap small econo car companies like Kia/Suzuki compared to super expensive exotic small companies Bugatti/Rolls Royce/Bently/Ferrari, Lamborgini. Lexus and Acura fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Not total opposite ends.
In another comment you were simply naming everything Lexus has and Acura doesn't like Lexus sets the standard for all types of vehicles and options that a luxury maker should offer. Not every car company has to come out with pretty much the same type of car or copy what other automakers offer almost to a tee to compete in segments. Their is nothing wrong with the size of the vehicle being slightly larger/smaller/wider or have different engine/drivetrain options then its competition. They all don't have to offer the same thing or be the same type of car.
You say Acura has no coupes but they have sold coupes they just don't have one right now, they had a Legend coupe, CL coupe, Integra could be considered a coupe/hatchback, NSX was a 2 door sports car. How many coupes or 2 doors has Lexus offered, one and the current boulevard cruiser SC430 is in a bad need of a redesign and is pretty much ignored by the automotive press and far below the competition. I know alot of people who think it is extremly odd looking and more of a chick car. It may have sold well when it came out but how could it not, it was the only Japanese luxury convertable available and there are not many other cars in that segment, Germany had the SL and Jag had the poor selling XK. Thats really it,people had little choice so just because it sold pretty well in the first few years is nothing to be all that proud of. If there was alot of different competition in that segment then maybe that would be different.
The last generations of Legends also sold in the 40's and were not that much less expensive then LS at the time and they sold pretty well so Acura can sell sedans in the 40's and over especially considering inflation where that would be more or less like selling well into the 50's back in the mid 90's.
You say Lexus has an F brand to compete with AMG, M but it has only recently come out with this, the ISF has only been available for a few months. I give Lexus props for offering such a car but time will tell if it is truly successful and it is only something they did very recently. You say Acura has no deisals but Lexus in the US does not either and Acura is slated to get one soon in the TSX.
Lexus prices are not on par with BMW/Mercedes, Lexus cars sell for far below what the Germans charge, where do you get that Lexus prices are on par with BMW/Merc? Have you seen how much an E class/5 series cost when similiarly optioned and configured to GS models, the Germans are way more expensive. The LS460 starts in the 60s LS460L at around 72K. A base S class is like 87.5 and once optioned similiarly to a LS is a good deal over 90K and easily get to well over 120K when adding larger/stronger engines. They are not even close. Loaded 1 series which is a notch below the IS in my opinion are still in the mid 40's. Load 3 series can go in the upper 50's. The IS and ES are much less expensive then then similiar 3 series. I for one am glad Lexus does not way overprice their cars and I will give them no respect if they do. Why would you want to pay more for the same car, just for an ego thing that they can be as overpriced as the German competiton?
The LS600l is selling in very small numbers too, just because a couple thousand are buying it does not mean it is a hit. It is the only large lux sedan to offer a hybrid which means it has no competition and can appeal to the greenies who think it is somehow a responsible vehicle even though it is anything but a fuel saving economical "green" vehicle. A four door lux sedan is a much easier sell and appeals to a ton more people then a 2 seat mid engine exotic that really only appeals to a small number of hardcore enthusiasts. Just because Lexus LS600l sold more then expectations does not mean much if expectations were super low. Lexus projected 2K per year which is extremely low and probrably done on purpose so if it broke sales goals it would look like a big success when it isn't. They sold 6095 worldwide which was over expectation but not a huge number especially compared to regular LS sales. For Nov07 sales Lexus sold 170 LS hybrids compared to 2668 regular LS units which is only 6.4% of total LS sales, that is not that impressive and does not mean people are buying 100K Lexus vehicles in droves, the vast majority buy regular LS priced in the 70's. Lexus is selling these hybrids to a niche group of wealthy eco buyers and I doubt that trend will be long term as most know the hybrid LS is slower then the regular one and does not really get any better gas mileage even though it cost 30K more and uses more resources to build. If Acura came out with a car like that you would be critisizing it up and down.
As far as Acura sales being down, pretty much all luxury sales are down in 08 including Lexus mainly do to the economy and gas prices. Everywhere I looked which there was not that much info showed Lexus sales down and often percentage wise below Acura sales. For March 08 luxury sales were down 15% and Lexus sales fell 18% another source said Acura was down 8% and Lexus down 9.3%, not exactly sure what month it was but it was recently. Nov 07 lux sales were down 7% BMW,Merc were up but Lexus and Acura were down Acura down 15%, Lexus down 6.9%.
The one important fact you have to consider with Acura sales being down is that all Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles and have replacements or major updates due soon. Lexus on the other hand came out with the new ES, IS, and LS all well after the Acura competing models came out. The GS also got a new much more powerful v6, hybrid, and larger more powerful v8 well after the TL and RL came out. Most of the competition have came out with new or heavily updated models while Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles so that partially explains Acuras decline in sales, once the new TSX, TL, and RL(not talking about the horrible refresh of course) but a new RL come out sales will go back up. The TSX has only recently become available and sales figures will not be available for awhile.
All right I am done with this for now, it ended up being way longer then I intended again and we are just not going to agree on this subject although we do seem to agree or see eye to eye on most other things . Another nice long Acure/Lexus argument
Both brands are definitely not in total opposite ends of the spectrum, I don't know how you can possibly come up with that and shows your huge pro Lexus/anti Acura bias. If saying and thinking that makes you feel better for owning and being a Lexus fan and able to completely dismiss and llook down on Acura and people who own and like Acuras then that is fine but pretty out of touch with reality. Is Lexus considered a more prestigious luxury automaker then Acura, yes to most people. Is it a huge difference or a whole other level, certainly not. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum would be extremely cheap small econo car companies like Kia/Suzuki compared to super expensive exotic small companies Bugatti/Rolls Royce/Bently/Ferrari, Lamborgini. Lexus and Acura fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Not total opposite ends.
In another comment you were simply naming everything Lexus has and Acura doesn't like Lexus sets the standard for all types of vehicles and options that a luxury maker should offer. Not every car company has to come out with pretty much the same type of car or copy what other automakers offer almost to a tee to compete in segments. Their is nothing wrong with the size of the vehicle being slightly larger/smaller/wider or have different engine/drivetrain options then its competition. They all don't have to offer the same thing or be the same type of car.
You say Acura has no coupes but they have sold coupes they just don't have one right now, they had a Legend coupe, CL coupe, Integra could be considered a coupe/hatchback, NSX was a 2 door sports car. How many coupes or 2 doors has Lexus offered, one and the current boulevard cruiser SC430 is in a bad need of a redesign and is pretty much ignored by the automotive press and far below the competition. I know alot of people who think it is extremly odd looking and more of a chick car. It may have sold well when it came out but how could it not, it was the only Japanese luxury convertable available and there are not many other cars in that segment, Germany had the SL and Jag had the poor selling XK. Thats really it,people had little choice so just because it sold pretty well in the first few years is nothing to be all that proud of. If there was alot of different competition in that segment then maybe that would be different.
The last generations of Legends also sold in the 40's and were not that much less expensive then LS at the time and they sold pretty well so Acura can sell sedans in the 40's and over especially considering inflation where that would be more or less like selling well into the 50's back in the mid 90's.
You say Lexus has an F brand to compete with AMG, M but it has only recently come out with this, the ISF has only been available for a few months. I give Lexus props for offering such a car but time will tell if it is truly successful and it is only something they did very recently. You say Acura has no deisals but Lexus in the US does not either and Acura is slated to get one soon in the TSX.
Lexus prices are not on par with BMW/Mercedes, Lexus cars sell for far below what the Germans charge, where do you get that Lexus prices are on par with BMW/Merc? Have you seen how much an E class/5 series cost when similiarly optioned and configured to GS models, the Germans are way more expensive. The LS460 starts in the 60s LS460L at around 72K. A base S class is like 87.5 and once optioned similiarly to a LS is a good deal over 90K and easily get to well over 120K when adding larger/stronger engines. They are not even close. Loaded 1 series which is a notch below the IS in my opinion are still in the mid 40's. Load 3 series can go in the upper 50's. The IS and ES are much less expensive then then similiar 3 series. I for one am glad Lexus does not way overprice their cars and I will give them no respect if they do. Why would you want to pay more for the same car, just for an ego thing that they can be as overpriced as the German competiton?
The LS600l is selling in very small numbers too, just because a couple thousand are buying it does not mean it is a hit. It is the only large lux sedan to offer a hybrid which means it has no competition and can appeal to the greenies who think it is somehow a responsible vehicle even though it is anything but a fuel saving economical "green" vehicle. A four door lux sedan is a much easier sell and appeals to a ton more people then a 2 seat mid engine exotic that really only appeals to a small number of hardcore enthusiasts. Just because Lexus LS600l sold more then expectations does not mean much if expectations were super low. Lexus projected 2K per year which is extremely low and probrably done on purpose so if it broke sales goals it would look like a big success when it isn't. They sold 6095 worldwide which was over expectation but not a huge number especially compared to regular LS sales. For Nov07 sales Lexus sold 170 LS hybrids compared to 2668 regular LS units which is only 6.4% of total LS sales, that is not that impressive and does not mean people are buying 100K Lexus vehicles in droves, the vast majority buy regular LS priced in the 70's. Lexus is selling these hybrids to a niche group of wealthy eco buyers and I doubt that trend will be long term as most know the hybrid LS is slower then the regular one and does not really get any better gas mileage even though it cost 30K more and uses more resources to build. If Acura came out with a car like that you would be critisizing it up and down.
As far as Acura sales being down, pretty much all luxury sales are down in 08 including Lexus mainly do to the economy and gas prices. Everywhere I looked which there was not that much info showed Lexus sales down and often percentage wise below Acura sales. For March 08 luxury sales were down 15% and Lexus sales fell 18% another source said Acura was down 8% and Lexus down 9.3%, not exactly sure what month it was but it was recently. Nov 07 lux sales were down 7% BMW,Merc were up but Lexus and Acura were down Acura down 15%, Lexus down 6.9%.
The one important fact you have to consider with Acura sales being down is that all Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles and have replacements or major updates due soon. Lexus on the other hand came out with the new ES, IS, and LS all well after the Acura competing models came out. The GS also got a new much more powerful v6, hybrid, and larger more powerful v8 well after the TL and RL came out. Most of the competition have came out with new or heavily updated models while Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles so that partially explains Acuras decline in sales, once the new TSX, TL, and RL(not talking about the horrible refresh of course
) but a new RL come out sales will go back up. The TSX has only recently become available and sales figures will not be available for awhile.All right I am done with this for now, it ended up being way longer then I intended again
and we are just not going to agree on this subject although we do seem to agree or see eye to eye on most other things . Another nice long Acure/Lexus argumentYou are offended that Lexus/Acura are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Hey, I am not the one running either company. The facts and results speak for themselves!!!!
The begining of your post is an attack on me, did you read what you wrote?
The Legend GS sold in the 45k range and SOLD LIKE CRAP. Don't get mad at me I LOVE THE CAR, I think it was one of the best cars of the 1990s. bitkahuna had one and loved it.
The fact is the PUBLIC did not buy it, not the 1st or 2nd RL.
I am confused why you would even DEBATE Acura coupes, as this is what has happened to each one;
-NSX (which I adore) discontinued
-Integra/RSX discontinued
-Legend Coupe discontinued
-CL Coupe discontinued
Those are FACTS. Don't get upset at me for listing FACTS. You are mistaking BIAS for FACTs that you chose to just ignore.
The SC in contrast evolved into the SC 430. We may not be huge fans of it and the INTERNET may hate the car, but it sells in its limited quantities. It has not been discontinued. It provided at the time a HUGE halo for Lexus when it debuted and became popular with the rich and famous.
Glancing at the rest of your post and reflecting on the ones in the past, it is clear the wool is over your eyes and you refuse to use logic. I honestly don't think you know much about either company outside that you own a Leuxs and love Honda.
Fine with me but the thing is I do
05-02-08, 09:10 AM
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think there are good points in this thread in regards to luxury branding and perceived prestige, but these things can be overcome by the quality of the product itself. Take the GT-R for example: does anyone care if it's a Nissan instead of an Infiniti (in regards to prestige, not dealer service)? Granted most Infiniti purchasers aren't buying their cars based on brand name alone, but I think it's still a valid point. Much like the original NSX, the GT-R's performance is beyond expectation, and the proverbial bar has been forever raised. That's why the GT-R is universally loved, despite the Nissan emblem and lack of brand prestige. But if Honda is looking to sell a car at $180k, it had better be something beyond extraordinary.
And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?
Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.
Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.
And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?
Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.
Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.
Ghosen will not build a car if it will not be profitable, the business case was made to sell the GT-R worldwide and clearly, make it DESTROY just about anything on the road.
The performance figures of the GT-R are just staggering and you can drive it everyday and its as low of a price you will get.
Honestly I don't know how Nissan did it. For all intents and purposes, they have changed the game. If I had an Enzo or Murchialago or Saleen S7 I would be crapping bricks if a GT-R pulled up next to me
It is CLEAR though, that Nissan was FOCUSED on what the GT-R will be. A 911 Turbo killer nearly 1/2 the price.
That is exactly what Acura and the NSX team lacks. Focus. Will it be a GT? Will it be a new NSX? What are its targets? What will it look like?
Your points on the R8 are on the money.
05-02-08, 09:18 AM
#71
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Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.
Chris what is so obvious too is how FOCUSED the NSX team was on the car. If Gordan Murray changed some things on the F1 (arguably the greatest car ever created) b/c of the NSX, there isn't more to be said.
Now I do think part of the problem is peoples expectations. This is not 1990. In 1990, no one say this bullet coming. The NSX as we know work up EVERYONE from Porsche to Ferrari.
Well its 2008 and they are awake as is pretty much everyone. It seems the GT-R has shaken things up from a performance/price standpoint (styling is too over the top for some whereas the NSX was beautiful).
Even the Lexus LF-A, I don't think it can really "shock" anyone outside of maybe blending Lexus luxury and features.
The competition is so intense today its hard to make a car that just
everyone!
05-02-08, 09:20 AM
#72
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I'm nervous enough about Lexus selling a car for $180,000. I really don't think its the proper time for Acura to do so. Like Mike pointed out, Acura has no offering in the premium luxury sedan category. It's flagship RL competes with the midsize executive sedans... and it has a hard enough time selling in that segement. Lexus has proven they can sell a car for $120,000 against the speculation by many that they would fail. Now between the two, who do you think honestly has a better chance of selling a $180,000 sports car? 1.) The company that is well known for selling $40,000 cars but struggling to sell one for $50,000; or 2.) A top selling luxury brand who can match sales monthly with what many consider to be the best car in the world (LS vs S-Class... this month the LS outsold the S-Class by 200 units). To play in the 6-digits game, superb engineering alone does not cut it. Heck, even to play in the $70,000 game superb engineering alone does not cut it (e.g. Phaeton). If either DOES have a chance of selling a car for $180,000, I'm putting money on Lexus every day of the week.
I also agree on Mike... I think the NSX replacement should be an evolution of the old one... not a revolution. One of the problems with the NSX as far as public appeal was that it was low on its power compared to others (mind not that it had and still has an absolutely phenomenal chassis). If they had stuck with something similar to the HSC concept + V10... I think they could have tried to sell that car for at least $100-120,000.
Also, Toyota has been putting R&D into the LF-A for years now. Honda cannot even get a design down that doesn't cause a wave of public nausea and unrest. How are they going to come up with something with the looks and performance of a proper Ferrari-alternative by 2010???? Maybe my life would be a lot less stressful if I took a hit of whatever the Acura spokesperson is smokin....
I also agree on Mike... I think the NSX replacement should be an evolution of the old one... not a revolution. One of the problems with the NSX as far as public appeal was that it was low on its power compared to others (mind not that it had and still has an absolutely phenomenal chassis). If they had stuck with something similar to the HSC concept + V10... I think they could have tried to sell that car for at least $100-120,000.
Also, Toyota has been putting R&D into the LF-A for years now. Honda cannot even get a design down that doesn't cause a wave of public nausea and unrest. How are they going to come up with something with the looks and performance of a proper Ferrari-alternative by 2010???? Maybe my life would be a lot less stressful if I took a hit of whatever the Acura spokesperson is smokin....
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