Honda's CEO: "Civic Hybrid was a mistake, real hybrid war has just begun"
12-27-07, 01:42 PM
#31
The Prius is simply too geeky for a fair number of people.....so they march across street to the Honda shop and take home an HCH instead.Manufacturers at this time keep catering to what current hybrid owners want. That is rightfully so in a way, but they also need to focus on what will get the rest of us into a hybrid. There are more of us then current hybrid owners.
12-27-07, 09:50 PM
#32
I'm with you. It is about time manufacturers let the rest of us into this Hybrid world. There are a lot of potential hybrid buyers out there still waiting on the sidelines for something that fits them, and not just the eco friendly "Show the World I'm Green" crop pf current hybrid buyers. All the good looking hybrids are too expensive for most people, and all the good economy hybrids like the Prius and even the Civic in its own way are too geeky and not attractive enough aesthetically for those waiting on the sidelines to get into the game at the moment.
Manufacturers at this time keep catering to what current hybrid owners want. That is rightfully so in a way, but they also need to focus on what will get the rest of us into a hybrid. There are more of us then current hybrid owners.
Manufacturers at this time keep catering to what current hybrid owners want. That is rightfully so in a way, but they also need to focus on what will get the rest of us into a hybrid. There are more of us then current hybrid owners.
. Toyota has something to address that.Perhaps. I usually don't floor the gas pedal, and the last Prius I drove was rather heavily loaded, with three fairly large guys in it. And if you are not looking directly at the little video-display power-flow screen that tells you when the gas and electric motors are each working (you should keep your eyes on the road anyway, and not let that distract you), then it's hard to tell by feel alone which system you are on, although the all-electric mode, of course, will be much quieter starting from a stop.
You're correct that electric motors produce most of their torque at extremely low speeds (technically, on paper, the max torque is at 0 RPM), so the faster you go, the torque drops off very rapidly. The problem, with the electric motor, is that there is very little HP to fall back on as the speed builds. That's why the gas engine has to pretty much carry you down the highway.....and why fuel mileage drops under those conditions.
You're correct that electric motors produce most of their torque at extremely low speeds (technically, on paper, the max torque is at 0 RPM), so the faster you go, the torque drops off very rapidly. The problem, with the electric motor, is that there is very little HP to fall back on as the speed builds. That's why the gas engine has to pretty much carry you down the highway.....and why fuel mileage drops under those conditions.
), and I accelerate normally and the speedo rises much faster.Every now and then I punch the throttle (not WOT) and I still get surprised by the amount of kick I get for such a small engine and "old" technology (the TCH and all Lexus hybrids are using an upgraded HSD unit)
12-28-07, 09:39 AM
#33
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What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
12-28-07, 06:17 PM
#34
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Yeah, I can't complain about the RX400h. That thing can move.
What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
I think we'll see hybrid variants for the next gen TL, TSX, ect..
12-28-07, 06:44 PM
#35
Acura Hybrids
What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
Also, they have stated that their hybrid system works best on small cars (which is why they have 2 small hybrids coming next year or so) & diesels work better for their larger autos (rumor mill has it the Accord, Pilot ...). As usual Honda/Acura is going off in their own direction; doin' whatever tickles their fancy.
12-28-07, 06:47 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
It does, as you say, have some effect on the handling, but the main effect is on acceleration.....torque steer. Throw a lot of power to the front wheels only (the 303 HP FWD Chevy Impala SS/Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and some Cadillac Northstars are probably the best examples), particularly with poorly engineered front driveshafts, and the steering wheel gets a mind of its own. If you are inattentive or careless, you can end up in the next lane in just a couple of seconds.
12-28-07, 06:52 PM
#37
Yeah, I can't complain about the RX400h. That thing can move.
What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
What I still don't understand is why Acura hasn't gotten in on the hybrids. Are they blind to the successes of Lexus? According to fueleconomy.gov the '06 Accord hybrid is averaging 31.6 mpg. Pretty good if you ask me for a car with 250+ hp. Throw that system in the TL if you ask me and you'll get people who want to be environmentally friendly and have the money to do so. TL drivers, though they have a bit more power, report 24.6 mpg for the '06 and 22.7 for the '07.
Look at Honda's hybrids and you'll see why.
If no one's gonna pay for an Accord Hybrid, what makes you think anyone will pay the same "premium" (I hate that word now) for an Acura hybrid? Yes, the Acura folks on their forum are complaining about not having a hybrid but I can guarantee you they'll complain again if that HAH's IMA system was put in their TL. They'll complain of mpg that isn't anything special and honestly, 300hp is bad enough in a FWD car, it doesn't need a boost from the hybrid system.
Therein lies Honda's problem. Their hybrid system is good because it's less complex and therefore cost the consumer less to purchase but the problem is that the mpg isn't there and more importantly, the emissions aren't improved either. (although the HCH-II is very clean, the HAH wasn't). That's why Honda said it was gonna focus on small cars only cause their IMA system works best in smaller cars.
12-28-07, 07:02 PM
#38
If you have to drive a "hybrid" to let people KNOW that you drive a hybrid, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's like giving to charity, but having your name spralled all over a wall proclaiming how generous you are. True generosity and care for anything, including our earth, is doing things every day without having to be recognized for it.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
12-28-07, 07:10 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
If you have to drive a "hybrid" to let people KNOW that you drive a hybrid, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's like giving to charity, but having your name spralled all over a wall proclaiming how generous you are. True generosity and care for anything, including our earth, is doing things every day without having to be recognized for it.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
But in the long run, I still think small diesels, for several reasons, will ultimately take the place of hybrids as the powertrain of choice for high mileage.
The Insight, though, was basically a toy, not a real car. Not only did its undercarriage almost drag the ground, but its payload was so low (only 350 lbs.) that if you put two normal-sized adult males in it, even without any cargo, you were borderline overloaded.......notwithstanding the fact that the cargo area behind the battery pack was so small, even with a hatchback, that it could almost have passed for an MR2....you couldn't carry anything significant anyway.
12-28-07, 08:58 PM
#40
If you have to drive a "hybrid" to let people KNOW that you drive a hybrid, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's like giving to charity, but having your name spralled all over a wall proclaiming how generous you are. True generosity and care for anything, including our earth, is doing things every day without having to be recognized for it.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Hybrids need to go mainstream and not just for the image. If people really want to do some good for the environment and encourage people to buy hybrids, they need to come out with hybrids that when compared to a non hybrid equivalent makes absolute sense and the non hybrid makes no sense at all in terms of cost, fuel economy, style, and performance.
12-28-07, 09:14 PM
#41
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If you have to drive a "hybrid" to let people KNOW that you drive a hybrid, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's like giving to charity, but having your name spralled all over a wall proclaiming how generous you are. True generosity and care for anything, including our earth, is doing things every day without having to be recognized for it.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Honda was one of first to use gas-electro hybrid with the Insight, they just didn't have the "insight" to enhance to grow the vehicle. Too bad, it was nice car for it's time.
Well I might find it silly but MARKETING knows it is what ADVERTISES that car to others. Most people can't tell cars apart, thus its important to have badges.
I mean, the TL has "Acura" on the front bumper of all places.
I can talk, as I took off badges off one car and now have black pearl emblems on a black car. I could care less what people see.
12-28-07, 09:18 PM
#42
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JLSC4, I agree. You can only go so far with FWD and AWD in this car is a must. Honda won't go RWD and I don't think that the buyers that they have collected want them to. I know I wouldn't. AWD FTW. Of course, I also think that there should be an AWD ES hybrid based of off the RX's hybrid powertrain. Priced in the mid 30s, it might have a real attraction to those who desire luxury hybrids but can't afford the $40k Rx400h or $50k GS450h.
12-29-07, 01:06 PM
#43
I already said why, apparently you missed it. Because, people who have the cash, are looking for something environmentally friendly, that gets better gas mileage, and in this case maintains about the same amount of power. So these people with the cash don't want another Honda, they want something better. Probably end up in the hands of Lexus. Or at least the ones who can afford a Lexus hybrid.
Now comes the second part - they don't want another Honda. Ok fair enough and most Acura buyers (I might be generalizing) are looking for something sporty so their hybrids should be the same. Lexus hybrids aren't exactly sporty (maybe the GS450h but I only tested the straight line acceleration and that awesome. I wasn't about to test cornering on a public street lol).
12-29-07, 02:10 PM
#44
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Why do people buy the ES instead of a Camry? Because they have the money. They don't want another generic model, even though it has the same 3.5L as the ES. The same could apply to a TL hybrid is my point. Sporty or not.
