BMW X5 xDrive35d and 335d Clean Diesel
07-28-08, 12:54 PM
#16
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So I read an article in BMW Magazine today about adblue. First off, let me address the fact that I am biased. I drove 350 miles of our 700 mile trip yesterday from PA to SC in our RX400h.
The article states that adblue must be recharged every 5000 miles. And while I laud BMW for developing such a system for clean diesel, I'm not sure if its the best idea. I got to thinking about my trip. We will probably drive a total of 1600 miles during this trip. So what happens if you leave with 4000 miles on your odometer. Assuming this is covered under the 4 year maintence program is BMW going to spend the money to refill your adblue so that you don't exceed the limit on your trip? Is there some kind of legislation mandating that they do so? Better yet, will the average American spend the time or even remember that this needs to be done.
So I'm curious how much flex time is in there between fill ups. Is there a sort of grace period of say 1000 miles, where its really at 6000 miles that you need to be refilled? Or are you harming the environment right when you hit 5000 miles?
And when the cost of the adblue refill is out of the owners pocket at say 10 years, 100000 miles who will mandate that the driver must have their adblue refilled? Afterall, some states only require inspections every 2 years and I believe others are more leniant than that.
I am skeptical is to how "green" this technology really is.
Another issue.
The 335d is reported to achieve 23/33 and hit 60 MPH in 6.2 seconds.
The 328i achieves 19/28 and hits 60 MPH in 6.3 seconds.
The $3.80 a gallon vs. $4.80 a gallon, not to mention the 335d will require a premium of several thousand dollars unlike Mercedes Benz diesels that only cost $1000 more than their gasoline variants. Im not so sure this is such a good deal.
The article states that adblue must be recharged every 5000 miles. And while I laud BMW for developing such a system for clean diesel, I'm not sure if its the best idea. I got to thinking about my trip. We will probably drive a total of 1600 miles during this trip. So what happens if you leave with 4000 miles on your odometer. Assuming this is covered under the 4 year maintence program is BMW going to spend the money to refill your adblue so that you don't exceed the limit on your trip? Is there some kind of legislation mandating that they do so? Better yet, will the average American spend the time or even remember that this needs to be done.
So I'm curious how much flex time is in there between fill ups. Is there a sort of grace period of say 1000 miles, where its really at 6000 miles that you need to be refilled? Or are you harming the environment right when you hit 5000 miles?
And when the cost of the adblue refill is out of the owners pocket at say 10 years, 100000 miles who will mandate that the driver must have their adblue refilled? Afterall, some states only require inspections every 2 years and I believe others are more leniant than that.
I am skeptical is to how "green" this technology really is.
Another issue.
The 335d is reported to achieve 23/33 and hit 60 MPH in 6.2 seconds.
The 328i achieves 19/28 and hits 60 MPH in 6.3 seconds.
The $3.80 a gallon vs. $4.80 a gallon, not to mention the 335d will require a premium of several thousand dollars unlike Mercedes Benz diesels that only cost $1000 more than their gasoline variants. Im not so sure this is such a good deal.
At a $1 a gallon premium for diesel, the cost savings negligible - that much is true. However, you will use approximately 116 more gallons over 15K in the 328. So no matter what, you are helping the environment, and if the price of diesel ever comes down....
I think we can agree with the fact that the car may never make up its premium price for the diesel engine upgrade (if there is one). Of course the RX400h you were just driving won't do that either
07-28-08, 06:38 PM
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Having made the calculations on our own 400h, saving $500 thanks to PA, and about $650 a year at $3.50 a gallon (obviously we're saving more $$ now) it would take 5-6 years to make up the difference over the RX350. When we get the price for the X5 diesel I'll be interested to run the numbers on that.
Another thing I was thinking. The 328i is not direct fuel injected. If it were that would that would not only make it faster, perhaps as fast as the 335d if not faster, but the benefits of the diesel in regards to fuel economy would be diminished in comparison to the 328.
Perhaps diesels are more beneficial when not geared for power. But then I see the Jetta TDI that costs more than a Prius, gets worse fuel economy than a Prius, and uses more expensive fuel, well I think you see my point here. Perhaps pickup and semi trucks is where diesel belongs.
07-28-08, 07:06 PM
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Well thats why I have hard time justifying the diesel is because you could make up for the cost of the 400h over the 350. No tax credits for diesels, but they are still out their for hybrids. Yes, even Toyota hybrids. Cheaper fuel. And if you look at the gains of the 400h over the 350 compared to the gains of ML320 CDI over the 350 or the X5 diesel over the 3.0, well the 400h has a significantly higher combinged rating. I also think having to pay for urea injections after the 4 year maintence plan is up will hurt BMW. Afterall, they already have a bad reputation for being to expensive to maintain which is why they came out with this program to begin with.
Having made the calculations on our own 400h, saving $500 thanks to PA, and about $650 a year at $3.50 a gallon (obviously we're saving more $$ now) it would take 5-6 years to make up the difference over the RX350. When we get the price for the X5 diesel I'll be interested to run the numbers on that.
Another thing I was thinking. The 328i is not direct fuel injected. If it were that would that would not only make it faster, perhaps as fast as the 335d if not faster, but the benefits of the diesel in regards to fuel economy would be diminished in comparison to the 328.
Perhaps diesels are more beneficial when not geared for power. But then I see the Jetta TDI that costs more than a Prius, gets worse fuel economy than a Prius, and uses more expensive fuel, well I think you see my point here. Perhaps pickup and semi trucks is where diesel belongs.
Having made the calculations on our own 400h, saving $500 thanks to PA, and about $650 a year at $3.50 a gallon (obviously we're saving more $$ now) it would take 5-6 years to make up the difference over the RX350. When we get the price for the X5 diesel I'll be interested to run the numbers on that.
Another thing I was thinking. The 328i is not direct fuel injected. If it were that would that would not only make it faster, perhaps as fast as the 335d if not faster, but the benefits of the diesel in regards to fuel economy would be diminished in comparison to the 328.
Perhaps diesels are more beneficial when not geared for power. But then I see the Jetta TDI that costs more than a Prius, gets worse fuel economy than a Prius, and uses more expensive fuel, well I think you see my point here. Perhaps pickup and semi trucks is where diesel belongs.
I agree that direct injection is wonderful and will possibly make the 328 faster - but not from 0-30. Diesels rock with their low end torque (yep, just like a hybrid).
You forget one important thing with your Jetta comment - it is a lot more fun to drive than the Prius.
Also while people may not be thrilled about paying for the Adblue stuff, I'd counter that this is still a lot cheaper than replacing some worn out batteries.
I have to be honest here, so many people with hybrids seem to pooh pooh diesels. The fact is, they use less fuel and have lower emissions per mile than their equivalent gasoline counterparts while having significantly more torque. They are also considerably lighter than their hybrid's counterparts - what's not to like here except for the price of diesel?
07-28-08, 07:11 PM
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Many states offer hybrid tax rebates or a discount on state taxes. Some states will go as far as $3000 I believe. Pennsylvania gives you $500.
Replacing worn out batteries isn't an issue. Now if adblue had a 240,000 mile interval like the hybrid battery pack then I would not be skeptical. Unfortunately it doesn't.
Also, its easy to forget that diesel engines are heavier than gasoline engines. Thus the suspension on such cars has to be beefed up, which again adds weight.
Replacing worn out batteries isn't an issue. Now if adblue had a 240,000 mile interval like the hybrid battery pack then I would not be skeptical. Unfortunately it doesn't.
Also, its easy to forget that diesel engines are heavier than gasoline engines. Thus the suspension on such cars has to be beefed up, which again adds weight.
07-29-08, 04:15 PM
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Many states offer hybrid tax rebates or a discount on state taxes. Some states will go as far as $3000 I believe. Pennsylvania gives you $500.
Replacing worn out batteries isn't an issue. Now if adblue had a 240,000 mile interval like the hybrid battery pack then I would not be skeptical. Unfortunately it doesn't.
Also, its easy to forget that diesel engines are heavier than gasoline engines. Thus the suspension on such cars has to be beefed up, which again adds weight.
Replacing worn out batteries isn't an issue. Now if adblue had a 240,000 mile interval like the hybrid battery pack then I would not be skeptical. Unfortunately it doesn't.
Also, its easy to forget that diesel engines are heavier than gasoline engines. Thus the suspension on such cars has to be beefed up, which again adds weight.
The batteries in a hybrid will probably wear out based on time - adblue does not wear out based on time...
Beefed up suspensions for diesels? Maybe slightly, but come on, compared to the weight gain of hybrids here, we are really getting into silly arguments here. .
07-29-08, 04:59 PM
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Man do I find these hybrid (i.e. Lexus uber alles) threads versus diesel to be particularly uninformative. The diesels are just an alternative to the hybrids for higher mileage. Whether they will be able to get any market traction with their costs and the costs of diesel relative to gasoline or hybrid just remains to be seen. I for one just can't wait to have the choice. I hope the high tech diesels make it here quickly and provide a real alternative, I will definitely give them a look. As for the great AdBlue controversy of 2008, when I looked at the E320, the tank lasts for an estimated 15,000 miles so for my driving, roughly 12,000 miles a year, I would need it refilled about every fifteen months. Not exactly a high maintenance item.
Now if the guys who make the batteries for the hybrids, that we all know are going to last at least ten years and 200,000 miles, would make plain old gas engine batteries I wouldn't have to replace the battery in my GSes every 42 months like clockwork.
Now if the guys who make the batteries for the hybrids, that we all know are going to last at least ten years and 200,000 miles, would make plain old gas engine batteries I wouldn't have to replace the battery in my GSes every 42 months like clockwork.
07-29-08, 05:08 PM
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535d: 3817 lbs
A difference of 286 lbs.
GS460: 3,945 lbs
GS450h: 4,134 lbs
A difference of 189 lbs.
The numbers don't lie.
07-29-08, 05:55 PM
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07-29-08, 07:17 PM
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I see your point, but they technically don't compare. If there were a V8 powered RX that would be an appropriate comparison. Or if the idea behind the 400h were to match the power of the RX350, but its not. Its supposed to have the power of a V8 and it does.
I also see that you compared the FWD RX350 with the AWD RX400h which is not a valid comparison either.
FWD RX350: 3870 lbs.
FWD RX400h: 4190 lbs.
A difference of 320 lbs.
AWD RX350: 4090
AWD RX400h: 4365
A difference of 270 lbs.
You can't ignore the details my good man.
I also see that you compared the FWD RX350 with the AWD RX400h which is not a valid comparison either.
FWD RX350: 3870 lbs.
FWD RX400h: 4190 lbs.
A difference of 320 lbs.
AWD RX350: 4090
AWD RX400h: 4365
A difference of 270 lbs.
You can't ignore the details my good man.
07-29-08, 09:00 PM
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I see your point, but they technically don't compare. If there were a V8 powered RX that would be an appropriate comparison. Or if the idea behind the 400h were to match the power of the RX350, but its not. Its supposed to have the power of a V8 and it does.
I also see that you compared the FWD RX350 with the AWD RX400h which is not a valid comparison either.
FWD RX350: 3870 lbs.
FWD RX400h: 4190 lbs.
A difference of 320 lbs.
AWD RX350: 4090
AWD RX400h: 4365
A difference of 270 lbs.
You can't ignore the details my good man.
I also see that you compared the FWD RX350 with the AWD RX400h which is not a valid comparison either.
FWD RX350: 3870 lbs.
FWD RX400h: 4190 lbs.
A difference of 320 lbs.
AWD RX350: 4090
AWD RX400h: 4365
A difference of 270 lbs.
You can't ignore the details my good man.
A further point (and I can't believe you missed this one) is that the RX400h comes with more standard features than the RX350 (right?)- so it will weigh more than the RX350 due to those options. The same will hold true when trying to compare any two cars (especially something like a euro spec 530i and a 535d which may or may not come with the same options).
But my point still stands - when you compare apples to apples, a hybrid will add more weight than a diesel.
07-30-08, 06:56 AM
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Actually I did the FWD RX comparison on purpose - because you did the same thing with the 530. A better and more true comparison is the 535i vs. the 535d and use the weights on the US cars. BTW, good luck finding the weight on the 535d since it is not out yet in US configuration.
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine_data.html
The 535d compares with the 530i in terms of performance. The 535i is a great deal faster than the 535d and thus they don't compare.
530i:
0 - 62: 6.3 seconds
1000 meters: 25.9 seconds
535d:
0 - 62: 6.4 seconds
1000 meters: 25.6 seconds