So Long V8 Cadillacs
01-03-08, 09:57 PM
#46
Lexus Champion
The V8 Cadillacs have a long way to go. To do so, Cadillac needs to update its V8 power plant to stay with the competition.
The sale of the V8 Cadillac didn't exceed expectation not because there are no longer demand for V8 powered engines, but because the Northstar failed to stay with the pack in the past 15 years.
When the first Northstar powered Cadillac, the Allante was introduced in late 92', the Northstar was considered one of the most exciting engines from GM, as it was making nearly as much power (in a 93' Seville STS) as the Mercedes V8 in the 500SL while beating the Mercedes E420, BMW's E34 540, Lexus LS400 and even the Infinity Q45 in terms of power.
Over the years, both BMW and Mercedes' V8 grew stronger and stronger. Even in the same class, the E550 and 550i are now far more advanced and powerful than the aging Northstar. The Lexus LS has even grown up to compete with the likes of the S class and 7 series.
It's a pity that Cadillac has neglected the Northstar's potential and instead, made the less powerful variants of it such as the detuned 275hp version.
Jon
The sale of the V8 Cadillac didn't exceed expectation not because there are no longer demand for V8 powered engines, but because the Northstar failed to stay with the pack in the past 15 years.
When the first Northstar powered Cadillac, the Allante was introduced in late 92', the Northstar was considered one of the most exciting engines from GM, as it was making nearly as much power (in a 93' Seville STS) as the Mercedes V8 in the 500SL while beating the Mercedes E420, BMW's E34 540, Lexus LS400 and even the Infinity Q45 in terms of power.
Over the years, both BMW and Mercedes' V8 grew stronger and stronger. Even in the same class, the E550 and 550i are now far more advanced and powerful than the aging Northstar. The Lexus LS has even grown up to compete with the likes of the S class and 7 series.
It's a pity that Cadillac has neglected the Northstar's potential and instead, made the less powerful variants of it such as the detuned 275hp version.
Jon
01-03-08, 10:31 PM
#47
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Whether you agree with CAFE standards or not, the fact of the matter is that oil isn't unlimited and we should proactive. In addition to that it certainly is getting expensive in trying to keep up with demand so if we lowered demand perhaps it will slow down.
Buick hasn't had V8s for awhile. I don't see why Cadillac would want to go this way. I guess using the LS engines would make sense.
And just to point out, the Performance 4.6L Northstar puts out 292 hp, the DI 3.5L in the GS puts outs 303 hp, the turbocharged 4 cylinder 2.5L in the STi puts out 305 hp. Haha, we could just rely on 4 cylinders, but that wouldn't be as smooth.
Buick hasn't had V8s for awhile. I don't see why Cadillac would want to go this way. I guess using the LS engines would make sense.
And just to point out, the Performance 4.6L Northstar puts out 292 hp, the DI 3.5L in the GS puts outs 303 hp, the turbocharged 4 cylinder 2.5L in the STi puts out 305 hp. Haha, we could just rely on 4 cylinders, but that wouldn't be as smooth.
01-03-08, 10:33 PM
#48
guys, I dont think mmarshall is saying a V6 will sell the car like camrys and accords. He even mentioned that by acknowledging the low sales figure. What I think he's trying to say is that the V6 performs well enough for the application, which is true. If people buy cars for what they are and not for image and status, the RL would sell. But since the luxury world is driven by image, a V8 engine provides the halo-effect the car needs to sell.
and just put it the other way. acura NEEDS a v8 if they want the RL to succeed the way it's supposed to be.
and back to the caddy case. they want to be in the luxury segments, but they are not giving out the v8, that won't work. i am not saying they will be dropped out of the luxury segment, but they will come close to be another acura.
image or halo or perception, no matter how you put it. that's the market
01-03-08, 10:51 PM
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why do people keep saying the RL V-6 is okay? Its not. The Lexus GS 350 AWD is a full second faster at least. So is the new BMW 535xi and the E350 AWD is faster and so is the M35x. The Lexus and BMW V-6/I-6 are pretty much state of the art and both engines are WARDS 10 best winners as well as the VQ.
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
Luxury is excess, its V-8s, hybrids, V-12s, turbos, s/c and a bunch of power we don't really need.
Though BMW backtracked on its turbo judgement, its freaking luxurious and incredible they now offer a TT I-6 and TT V-8.
Benz has F/I V-8s, BMW has TT V-8s, Lexus has hybrid V-8s. Let alone regular engines.
Acura never had one, why the hell should Caddy go that route?
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
Luxury is excess, its V-8s, hybrids, V-12s, turbos, s/c and a bunch of power we don't really need.
Though BMW backtracked on its turbo judgement, its freaking luxurious and incredible they now offer a TT I-6 and TT V-8.
Benz has F/I V-8s, BMW has TT V-8s, Lexus has hybrid V-8s. Let alone regular engines.
Acura never had one, why the hell should Caddy go that route?
01-03-08, 10:54 PM
#50
Lexus Connoisseur
01-03-08, 11:59 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Why do people keep saying the RL V-6 is okay? Its not. The Lexus GS 350 AWD is a full second faster at least. So is the new BMW 535xi and the E350 AWD is faster and so is the M35x. The Lexus and BMW V-6/I-6 are pretty much state of the art and both engines are WARDS 10 best winners as well as the VQ.
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
When I drove the RL it had plenty of power and it was never an issue. It felt similiar to my GS430 most of time although when I briefly floored it, it did not have the sudden forceful accleration the GS430 has when I floor it but I hardly ever floor the GS so it is not that big of a deal. The RL had more then enough passing power and enough to quickly get you up to fast speeds and was extremely smooth when applying the power.
Even though the power is good it still would be nice to have a little more and Acura should have added some horsepower by now or it should soon. 315-330hp would be very good from an enlarged 3.7l engine or 350-370 from a turbo powerplant would be great. I hope Acura does not just ignore the RL since it is not selling all that well like they did with the NSX after they gave it a power boost and 6 speed in 97 and just let the competition pass it while it remained unchanged over the years.
01-04-08, 12:30 AM
#53
Like Udel said, the V6 is one of the oldest engines in the pack. When it came out, it had one of the most powerful engines in its class. The GS460 is going to have it worse out of the competition with its behind the pack 342hp. It's all relative. The V6 in the RL is okay. Not from a marketing standpoint, but from performance and practicality. It's just unfortunate that people dont understand that the RL was meant to compete with the 6-cyl competition. Most assume that all flagship should be compared against other flagships. Too many time have people compared the RL to the Lexus LS just because they are flagships of their respective brand.
01-04-08, 12:37 AM
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Like Udel said, the V6 is one of the oldest engines in the pack. When it came out, it had one of the most powerful engines in its class. The GS460 is going to have it worse out of the competition with its behind the pack 342hp. It's all relative. The V6 in the RL is okay. Not from a marketing standpoint, but from performance and practicality. It's just unfortunate that people dont understand that the RL was meant to compete with the 6-cyl competition. Most assume that all flagship should be compared against other flagships. Too many time have people compared the RL to the Lexus LS just because they are flagships of their respective brand.
Even with 300hp, every review said it never felt it. Its 0-60 times were on par with the 240hp GS 300.
We are not comparing the RL to the LS or even the GS 430/460 and equivilent cars.
From a V-6 only standpoint, it still is outgunned and out sold. I just posted 2007 sales figures in that class, the RL was 2nd to last with a 45% drop this year. The RL is not a bad car, its a good car. Most everything in this class is GREAT.
2007 Year End Mid-Size Luxo sales
BMW 5 series- 54,142 -4.6%
Mercedes Benz E-class- 48,950 -2.5%
Lexus GS- 23,381 -15% (estimate, I had to combine figures)
Infiniti M- 21,884 -15%
Cadillac STS- 20,873 -18.7%
Volvo S80-12,354 +125%
Audi A6- 12,001 -26%
Acura RL-6,262 -45.7%
Jaguar S-type- 3,524 -40%
01-04-08, 12:39 AM
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lexus 4.0 V-8 debuts in 1989 250hp
Gets bump to 260hp in 1995
With VVTi added gets 300hp or 290hp in 1998.
4.0 is stroked to 4.3 in 2001, same basic engine. More torque and the HP comes at lower RPM.
4.6 debuts in LS in 2007, no relation to any previous Lexus engine, all new.
01-04-08, 12:46 AM
#57
The new 4.6 has no relation to the 4.0.
Lexus 4.0 V-8 debuts in 1989 250hp
Gets bump to 260hp in 1995
With VVTi added gets 300hp or 290hp in 1998.
4.0 is stroked to 4.3 in 2001, same basic engine. More torque and the HP comes at lower RPM.
4.6 debuts in LS in 2007, no relation to any previous Lexus engine, all new.
Lexus 4.0 V-8 debuts in 1989 250hp
Gets bump to 260hp in 1995
With VVTi added gets 300hp or 290hp in 1998.
4.0 is stroked to 4.3 in 2001, same basic engine. More torque and the HP comes at lower RPM.
4.6 debuts in LS in 2007, no relation to any previous Lexus engine, all new.
01-04-08, 02:35 AM
#58
Pole Position
I agree that the RL has plenty of power and is smooth enough for me and most people but I also think it could use a little more horsepower now with the competition upping the power on the v6s and the lack of a v8 whether they enlarge it to 3.7 and tune it for about 20 to 30hp or use a turbo for even more horsepower and torque to at least make it able to perform fairly even with the TL. It would shut many critics up that complained they would like to see a little more power and it would be welcomed by most.
Look at the GS350 compared to the GS430. The 350 has accelerated from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds compared to the 430 thats best number is 5.7 seconds. The v6 is faster, puts out more hp, is more fuel efficient yet less expensive then the v8 so why would you choose the 430 over the 350 aside from the v8 maybe being slightly smoother, of course the 460 will up the hp but I doubt it will be accelerating much faster.
I have seen maybe one or two new GS430 and M45 on the road since they came out, it is always the v6 versions I see driving around, same goes the the Audi a6, 5 series, and E class although I do see a few more v8s with the Merc and BMW, same with the caddy STS, the fact is most people don't see the need for a v8 in this class and the v6 is either just a little slower, about the same, or even outperforms the much more expensive and less fuel efficient v8s(GS350). That is reflected in the sales numbers in which the majority of sales even in the U.S. are the v6 versions of those cars and v8 barely make a dent.
I seriously doubt this move by GM has anything to do with CAFE standards and more to do with not wanting to spend the money for the new engine, I know alot of people who work at GM and they are making huge cuts right now in everything right now and don't want to spend money of anything.
I don't think CAFE standards will have a huge effect on car companies that have enough fuel efficient hybrids, 4 cylinders, and 6 cylinders to offset a few cars with 8 cylinder engines, I am pretty sure the 35mpg figure is not every car needs to get 35mpg but all their models put together need to average 35mpg. This may be bad news for Mercedes as most of their cars get pretty poor gas mileage and they have alot of v8 and v12 models as well as GM and Ford who rely on large heavy gas hogg SUVs/pickups for the bulk of their sales.
One of the main reasons why these 300+hp v6 are not quite replacing 8 cylinders is the cars keep getting larger and much heavier with every new model that all that horsepower is not making too much difference. With all that horsepower most cars should be accelerating in the low 5 second range and even high 4 second range which is more then enough to most people even gear heads but alot of the cars getting these engines weigh 3700-4000lbs which kills the horsepower/mpg advantage of these high strung 6 cylinders. If these manufacturers would focus more on getting weight down and start putting out entry and mid level cars weighing 3300-3400lbs with these new high powered 6 cylinders then they would not really need v8s to offset the weight and these 6 cylinders would be getting very good gas mileage.
Look at the GS350 compared to the GS430. The 350 has accelerated from 0-60 in 5.3 seconds compared to the 430 thats best number is 5.7 seconds. The v6 is faster, puts out more hp, is more fuel efficient yet less expensive then the v8 so why would you choose the 430 over the 350 aside from the v8 maybe being slightly smoother, of course the 460 will up the hp but I doubt it will be accelerating much faster.
I have seen maybe one or two new GS430 and M45 on the road since they came out, it is always the v6 versions I see driving around, same goes the the Audi a6, 5 series, and E class although I do see a few more v8s with the Merc and BMW, same with the caddy STS, the fact is most people don't see the need for a v8 in this class and the v6 is either just a little slower, about the same, or even outperforms the much more expensive and less fuel efficient v8s(GS350). That is reflected in the sales numbers in which the majority of sales even in the U.S. are the v6 versions of those cars and v8 barely make a dent.
I seriously doubt this move by GM has anything to do with CAFE standards and more to do with not wanting to spend the money for the new engine, I know alot of people who work at GM and they are making huge cuts right now in everything right now and don't want to spend money of anything.
I don't think CAFE standards will have a huge effect on car companies that have enough fuel efficient hybrids, 4 cylinders, and 6 cylinders to offset a few cars with 8 cylinder engines, I am pretty sure the 35mpg figure is not every car needs to get 35mpg but all their models put together need to average 35mpg. This may be bad news for Mercedes as most of their cars get pretty poor gas mileage and they have alot of v8 and v12 models as well as GM and Ford who rely on large heavy gas hogg SUVs/pickups for the bulk of their sales.
One of the main reasons why these 300+hp v6 are not quite replacing 8 cylinders is the cars keep getting larger and much heavier with every new model that all that horsepower is not making too much difference. With all that horsepower most cars should be accelerating in the low 5 second range and even high 4 second range which is more then enough to most people even gear heads but alot of the cars getting these engines weigh 3700-4000lbs which kills the horsepower/mpg advantage of these high strung 6 cylinders. If these manufacturers would focus more on getting weight down and start putting out entry and mid level cars weighing 3300-3400lbs with these new high powered 6 cylinders then they would not really need v8s to offset the weight and these 6 cylinders would be getting very good gas mileage.
01-04-08, 04:13 AM
#59
Pole Position
Why do people keep saying the RL V-6 is okay? Its not. The Lexus GS 350 AWD is a full second faster at least. So is the new BMW 535xi and the E350 AWD is faster and so is the M35x. The Lexus and BMW V-6/I-6 are pretty much state of the art and both engines are WARDS 10 best winners as well as the VQ.
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
Luxury is excess, its V-8s, hybrids, V-12s, turbos, s/c and a bunch of power we don't really need.
Though BMW backtracked on its turbo judgement, its freaking luxurious and incredible they now offer a TT I-6 and TT V-8.
Benz has F/I V-8s, BMW has TT V-8s, Lexus has hybrid V-8s. Let alone regular engines.
Acura never had one, why the hell should Caddy go that route?
I could understand if the V-6 RL was a smoking performer but its not even midpack anymore, its at the back of the pack.
Luxury is excess, its V-8s, hybrids, V-12s, turbos, s/c and a bunch of power we don't really need.
Though BMW backtracked on its turbo judgement, its freaking luxurious and incredible they now offer a TT I-6 and TT V-8.
Benz has F/I V-8s, BMW has TT V-8s, Lexus has hybrid V-8s. Let alone regular engines.
Acura never had one, why the hell should Caddy go that route?
01-04-08, 04:57 AM
#60
Pole Position
The LS460 has better fuel economy than a lot of V6 engines, and thats while being very heavy. Imagine if you took the 4.6 and decreased the displacement to 3.7 while keeping it a V8? It would have even better fuel economy, and would be able to rev to 8,000 RPMs, making more power than any comparable V6.