hyundai genesis (merged threads)
#301
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You must be totally depressed with the 4.6L V8 in the GS460 then.
Genesis V8: 375 hp, 333 torque
GS460: 342 hp, 339 torque
Sure, if you compare the Genesis V8 to the LS460, which costs almost twice as much.
I'm pretty sure the Genesis V8 doesn't have direct injection, for the same reason that the GS460 doesn't (cost).
Genesis V8: 375 hp, 333 torque
GS460: 342 hp, 339 torque
Sure, if you compare the Genesis V8 to the LS460, which costs almost twice as much.
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I'm pretty sure the Genesis V8 doesn't have direct injection, for the same reason that the GS460 doesn't (cost).
The GS460 has the exact same engine as the LS460, except it's just detuned or Lexus has simply underrated the engine on paper. Why, I don't know. If the GS460 is as fast as an LS460 than that will prove that it's simply underrated on paper.
Regardless of the numbers, the GS460 is likely to be faster than a V8 Genesis. And I will restate I highly doubt the Hyundai 4.6L V8 can match the Lexus 4.6L in terms of refinement and fuel economy.
And expect a V8 Genesis to have an MSRP in the mid 30K range.
Besides, I was not making any price comparisons, but looking at the Hyundai V8 from a technical point of view. It's just not that impressive.
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And customer satisfaction at the Hyundai dealer will certainly be lower than the competition. Hyundai needs to understand that having good dealers and good service is important in this market segment.
#303
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For the record, the GS460 DOES have Direct Injection. The misconception that it doesn't have it needs to stop. The Lexus site even states that it has DI: http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/featu...rformance.html
The GS460 has the exact same engine as the LS460, except it's just detuned or Lexus has simply underrated the engine on paper. Why, I don't know. If the GS460 is as fast as an LS460 than that will prove that it's simply underrated on paper.
Regardless of the numbers, the GS460 is likely to be faster than a V8 Genesis. And I will restate I highly doubt the Hyundai 4.6L V8 can match the Lexus 4.6L in terms of refinement and fuel economy.
And expect a V8 Genesis to have an MSRP in the mid 30K range.
Besides, I was not making any price comparisons, but looking at the Hyundai V8 from a technical point of view. It's just not that impressive.
The GS460 has the exact same engine as the LS460, except it's just detuned or Lexus has simply underrated the engine on paper. Why, I don't know. If the GS460 is as fast as an LS460 than that will prove that it's simply underrated on paper.
Regardless of the numbers, the GS460 is likely to be faster than a V8 Genesis. And I will restate I highly doubt the Hyundai 4.6L V8 can match the Lexus 4.6L in terms of refinement and fuel economy.
And expect a V8 Genesis to have an MSRP in the mid 30K range.
Besides, I was not making any price comparisons, but looking at the Hyundai V8 from a technical point of view. It's just not that impressive.
When evaluating an engine from a technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense to compare it to engines in cars costing much, much more, and then say that it's a disappointment.
Fact is, on paper, the Genesis V8 is not a disappointment at all when you compare it to the engines in its competitors, i.e., GS460, M45, 550i, A6 4.2, and E550.
#304
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Hm, had no idea that the GS460 had direct injection. Kinda makes its 342/333 figure even less impressive. Also, if the GS460 is as fast as the LS460, it doesn't prove anything. The GS is substantially lighter than the LS, so if the acceleration figures are about the same, it actually shows that the ratings are about right.
When evaluating an engine from a technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense to compare it to engines in cars costing much, much more, and then say that it's a disappointment.
Fact is, on paper, the Genesis V8 is not a disappointment at all when you compare it to the engines in its competitors, i.e., GS460, M45, 550i, A6 4.2, and E550.
When evaluating an engine from a technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense to compare it to engines in cars costing much, much more, and then say that it's a disappointment.
Fact is, on paper, the Genesis V8 is not a disappointment at all when you compare it to the engines in its competitors, i.e., GS460, M45, 550i, A6 4.2, and E550.
I originally did not make the comparison to the Lexus V8, but other people in the thread did. My comments were in response to that and to simply show that the Hyundai V8 does not match the Lexus V8. The whole comparison in the first place is silly.
I can almost guarantee the Genesis will not be cross-shopped with midsize premium luxury sedans. The Genesis will likely be cross-shopped with the Pontiac G8 rather than a GS, a 5, or an M. Buyers in the luxury market have different expectations when they walk into the dealership and their expectations will not be met when they walk into a Hyundai dealership.
The "competitors" you listed is competition that Hyundai wishes to compete with, but the reality will most likely be different. Hyundai had hoped that the Azera would compete with the Lexus RX350 and that the Veracruz would compete with the Lexus RX, and we've already seen how that's turned out
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Speaking of which, why don't we compare the Pontiac G8. It makes a few HP less, but makes much more torque than the Genesis V8. The G8 has a base MSRP of 30K. It might not have the same features and options as the Genesis, but it competes directly on price and size with the Genesis. Buyers will also have a similar dealer experience at a Pontiac dealership compared to a Hyundai dealership.
Comparing to the G8's V8, the Hyundai V8 is not impressive at all. The G8 also offers arguably a better value than the Genesis. Yes the G8 is down on features but I'll bet that a G8 will cost less than a Genesis V8. Then there is the matter of styling; the G8 has aggressive and stand-out styling, while the Genesis is completely anonymous.
Whether compared to cheaper-priced or higher priced competition, I am still not impressed by Hyundai's V8, but I do applaud them in actually making a V8 before Honda.
#305
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The service departments are going to be different as well as whether there is or is not a loaner provided, I suspect not with Genesis similar to not with Honda generally speaking.
Could I tolerate that loaner or not or surroundings to drive something so appealing and which may prove out to be everything it appears with reliability.....in a New York Nano-second. The 40 k savings would allow me to hire someone to take it in for oil changes and the like if I chose to.
#306
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I should have been more clear: if the GS460 is faster than an LS460 than that would mean the GS460 is underrated on paper.
I originally did not make the comparison to the Lexus V8, but other people in the thread did. My comments were in response to that and to simply show that the Hyundai V8 does not match the Lexus V8. The whole comparison in the first place is silly.
I can almost guarantee the Genesis will not be cross-shopped with midsize premium luxury sedans. The Genesis will likely be cross-shopped with the Pontiac G8 rather than a GS, a 5, or an M. Buyers in the luxury market have different expectations when they walk into the dealership and their expectations will not be met when they walk into a Hyundai dealership.
The "competitors" you listed is competition that Hyundai wishes to compete with, but the reality will most likely be different. Hyundai had hoped that the Azera would compete with the Lexus RX350 and that the Veracruz would compete with the Lexus RX, and we've already seen how that's turned out
.
Speaking of which, why don't we compare the Pontiac G8. It makes a few HP less, but makes much more torque than the Genesis V8. The G8 has a base MSRP of 30K. It might not have the same features and options as the Genesis, but it competes directly on price and size with the Genesis. Buyers will also have a similar dealer experience at a Pontiac dealership compared to a Hyundai dealership.
Comparing to the G8's V8, the Hyundai V8 is not impressive at all. The G8 also offers arguably a better value than the Genesis. Yes the G8 is down on features but I'll bet that a G8 will cost less than a Genesis V8. Then there is the matter of styling; the G8 has aggressive and stand-out styling, while the Genesis is completely anonymous.
Whether compared to cheaper-priced or higher priced competition, I am still not impressed by Hyundai's V8, but I do applaud them in actually making a V8 before Honda.
I originally did not make the comparison to the Lexus V8, but other people in the thread did. My comments were in response to that and to simply show that the Hyundai V8 does not match the Lexus V8. The whole comparison in the first place is silly.
I can almost guarantee the Genesis will not be cross-shopped with midsize premium luxury sedans. The Genesis will likely be cross-shopped with the Pontiac G8 rather than a GS, a 5, or an M. Buyers in the luxury market have different expectations when they walk into the dealership and their expectations will not be met when they walk into a Hyundai dealership.
The "competitors" you listed is competition that Hyundai wishes to compete with, but the reality will most likely be different. Hyundai had hoped that the Azera would compete with the Lexus RX350 and that the Veracruz would compete with the Lexus RX, and we've already seen how that's turned out
![Thumb Down](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif)
Speaking of which, why don't we compare the Pontiac G8. It makes a few HP less, but makes much more torque than the Genesis V8. The G8 has a base MSRP of 30K. It might not have the same features and options as the Genesis, but it competes directly on price and size with the Genesis. Buyers will also have a similar dealer experience at a Pontiac dealership compared to a Hyundai dealership.
Comparing to the G8's V8, the Hyundai V8 is not impressive at all. The G8 also offers arguably a better value than the Genesis. Yes the G8 is down on features but I'll bet that a G8 will cost less than a Genesis V8. Then there is the matter of styling; the G8 has aggressive and stand-out styling, while the Genesis is completely anonymous.
Whether compared to cheaper-priced or higher priced competition, I am still not impressed by Hyundai's V8, but I do applaud them in actually making a V8 before Honda.
I agree completely. Anyone who thinks a luxury-car buyer is going to cross-shop an LS/GS460, 5/7-series, or S/E-class with a Hyundai have got delusions of grandeur.
I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)
#307
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I agree completely. Anyone who thinks a luxury-car buyer is going to cross-shop an LS/GS460, 5/7-series, or S/E-class with a Hyundai have got delusions of grandeur.
I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)
I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)
For all we know the Genesis v8 engine may feel underpowered, be slower then the competition, rough, a gas hog, and be unreliable so it is too early to tell whether it will be great just judging by the specs, I am hoping it is very good and would seriously consider one if it turns out being a very good all around car.
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I agree, 375 hp may sound great on paper but depending how it is engineered it could end up being a dissapointment. The 340hp Q45 was slower then the 290HP LS430 mainly due to poor gearing and engine response. The Q45 engine was also a notorious gas hog and rougher then the LS430. I test drove a Q45 when I was looking for cars and it did not feel like 340hp when I mashed the pedal and did not feel any faster then my GS430 which going by test numbers the Q45 was slower usaully doing 0-60 4 to 5 tenths slower then the GSs times. A 340hp sedan being slower then a 290hp sedan of similiar size is a pretty big dissapointment in my book.
For all we know the Genesis v8 engine may feel underpowered, be slower then the competition, rough, a gas hog, and be unreliable so it is too early to tell whether it will be great just judging by the specs, I am hoping it is very good and would seriously consider one if it turns out being a very good all around car.
For all we know the Genesis v8 engine may feel underpowered, be slower then the competition, rough, a gas hog, and be unreliable so it is too early to tell whether it will be great just judging by the specs, I am hoping it is very good and would seriously consider one if it turns out being a very good all around car.
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That was a looong winded post for nothing because I don't think 1SickLex ever said he was chiefly impressed by the engine... There's a lot more than simply the engine that's very impressive with the Genesis.. The Genesis is going to make it obvious how much luxury automobile companies are overcharging for "luxury" options. When Hyundai is giving as much as they are at the price they are, it's kind of embarrassing to see what other companies are charging for the same thing...
I really want to see what this is made of.
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#311
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I agree completely. Anyone who thinks a luxury-car buyer is going to cross-shop an LS/GS460, 5/7-series, or S/E-class with a Hyundai have got delusions of grandeur.
I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)
I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)
Other brands HAVE to be concerned as their brand does not evoke that image with the public and people's rationality with the Genesis can win out.
#312
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That was a looong winded post for nothing because I don't think 1SickLex ever said he was chiefly impressed by the engine... There's a lot more than simply the engine that's very impressive with the Genesis.. The Genesis is going to make it obvious how much luxury automobile companies are overcharging for "luxury" options. When Hyundai is giving as much as they are at the price they are, it's kind of embarrassing to see what other companies are charging for the same thing...
#313
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Sidebar: My neighbor just traded in an RX400h after previously having an X5. She HATED the RX400h and missed her X5 a lot. RX400h isn't a bad vehicle, but I can understand that. The 2 vehicles are just so different in driving experience. RX priority is on being reliable, refined, comfortable, and functional. X5 priority is on being sporty and more functional/roomy than a 5 series but that's about it. To drive an RX somewhat aggressively is pretty scary. To drive an X5 somewhat aggressively is a joy.
The Genesis will likely be cross-shopped with the Pontiac G8 rather than a GS, a 5, or an M.
Buyers in the luxury market have different expectations when they walk into the dealership and their expectations will not be met when they walk into a Hyundai dealership.
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Hyundai had hoped that the Azera would compete with the Lexus RX350
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
and that the Veracruz would compete with the Lexus RX, and we've already seen how that's turned out
.
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http://usa.hyundai-motor.com/
Speaking of which, why don't we compare the Pontiac G8. It makes a few HP less, but makes much more torque than the Genesis V8. The G8 has a base MSRP of 30K. It might not have the same features and options as the Genesis, but it competes directly on price and size with the Genesis. Buyers will also have a similar dealer experience at a Pontiac dealership compared to a Hyundai dealership.
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Whether compared to cheaper-priced or higher priced competition, I am still not impressed by Hyundai's V8, but I do applaud them in actually making a V8 before Honda.
This is a game changer though... look at how much we're talking about it.
#314
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I am a buyer in luxury market vehicle segment but I also believe in getting value for money and a reliable product and in this case one that looks great.
The service departments are going to be different as well as whether there is or is not a loaner provided, I suspect not with Genesis similar to not with Honda generally speaking.
Could I tolerate that loaner or not or surroundings to drive something so appealing and which may prove out to be everything it appears with reliability.....in a New York Nano-second. The 40 k savings would allow me to hire someone to take it in for oil changes and the like if I chose to.
The service departments are going to be different as well as whether there is or is not a loaner provided, I suspect not with Genesis similar to not with Honda generally speaking.
Could I tolerate that loaner or not or surroundings to drive something so appealing and which may prove out to be everything it appears with reliability.....in a New York Nano-second. The 40 k savings would allow me to hire someone to take it in for oil changes and the like if I chose to.
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#315
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You can't 'almost guarantee' that at all. No one has any idea what will happen. The Genesis could be a flop or it could be a success. A good part of it will depend on marketing. I can definitely see people cross-shopping it. Of course the person who MUST have their ego stroked by having an established luxury badge isn't about to walk into their local Hyundai dealer. But the SAME THING could have been said about Lexus a few years ago and can still be said for some. I still know people who have BMW or Mercedes who look down on Lexus. They think they're 'nice' and 'reliable' but they're not interested. I don't agree with them of course but there's DEFINITELY still significant differences in the vehicle 'philosophy' between Lexus and the German brands.
Sorry, but the same thing CANNOT be said about Lexus. Toyota put far more effort and money into the LS and Lexus launches than what Hyundai is doing with the Genesis. Toyota debuted the LS with a NEW brand and NEW dealers and the original LS changed many benchmarks and brought numerous innovations. Hyundai will be launching the Genesis under the SAME brand and the SAME dealers as it's mass market cars. The Genesis has nothing spectacular or special about it. If Hyundai was going to launch the Genesis under a new brand with new dealers, that would be a different story.
Sidebar: My neighbor just traded in an RX400h after previously having an X5. She HATED the RX400h and missed her X5 a lot. RX400h isn't a bad vehicle, but I can understand that. The 2 vehicles are just so different in driving experience. RX priority is on being reliable, refined, comfortable, and functional. X5 priority is on being sporty and more functional/roomy than a 5 series but that's about it. To drive an RX somewhat aggressively is pretty scary. To drive an X5 somewhat aggressively is a joy.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
As for the Genesis V6, I definitely agree it could be cross-shopped with the G35 not to mention the CTS. As for the 3/IS/A4, I doubt that those buyers will cross-shop the Genesis. Since the Genesis is likely to attract value-conscious buyers, I also think it could steal some value consious buyers from Acura and Buick.
I think that's too sweeping a statement and with the economy in trouble people will look around. The Lexus dealerships are beautiful but buyers know that some of their car price is paying for that polished marble and donuts and some don't care for that. In fact, while we're making sweeping statements
I've before described the Lexus buyer as 'sensible' - not wanting something too flashy but wanting something highly reliable and refined and priced fairly. Well IF (and it's a huge if) Genesis is launched well, then some of those sensible buyers may well go to a Hyundai dealer and look around and say, well, it's not a fancy dealer, but for more car and less money than an ES350? Sign me up!
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Maybe you meant ES350?
Anyway, never read anywhere that was what Hyundai hoped, and the Azera couldn't compete anyway. Nice tail lights and an ok drivetrain, but really not that special. Plus the Sonata is so good I wouldn't be surprised if many potential Azera customers just end up getting a Sonata instead.
If you go to Hyundai's web site, and look under Veracruz/comparison, you will notice they compare it to many vehicles, but the RX isn't one of them. They do however say that Motor Trend chose the Veracruz over the RX.![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
http://usa.hyundai-motor.com/
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
If you go to Hyundai's web site, and look under Veracruz/comparison, you will notice they compare it to many vehicles, but the RX isn't one of them. They do however say that Motor Trend chose the Veracruz over the RX.
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
http://usa.hyundai-motor.com/
Your description and opinion of the Azera is ironic because when the car first came out there was a lot of talk and excitement about it. People on various forums (including CL) proclaimed how the Azera was going to eat into ES/TL sales. We all know how that turned out. Your description of the Azera also can easily apply to the Genesis. The powertrains seem decent, but there is nothing special or stand-out about the Genesis.
From the Veracruz page: http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/ve.../veracruz.aspx
The RX is not mentioned in the comparisons section, but right on the front page Hyundai proudly proclaims the results of that MT comparison. Yes MT originally did the comparison but fact is that it's fully Hyundai's decision to put it on the front page and it shows that Hyundai IS comparing the Veracruz to the RX. Otherwise why would they even mention the MT comparison?
I've also read about Hyundai execs comparing the Veracruz to the RX numerous times. The RX was mentioned not just as a development benchmark, but Hyundai execs were hoping that the Veracruz would compete and be cross-shopped with the RX. Again, we all know how that turned out
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Then there is the dealer experience, which we already know will be average simply because the Genesis will be sold at Hyundai dealerships.
Of course we're talking about this car, this *IS* the Car Chat after all. We talk about A LOT of cars here on CL, but that doesn't automatically mean a vehicle is a 'game changer' just because there is a lot of talk about it on CL
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