TRDFantasy

For the record, the GS460 DOES have Direct Injection. The misconception that it doesn't have it needs to stop. The Lexus site even states that it has DI: http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/featu...rformance.html

The GS460 has the exact same engine as the LS460, except it's just detuned or Lexus has simply underrated the engine on paper. Why, I don't know. If the GS460 is as fast as an LS460 than that will prove that it's simply underrated on paper.

Regardless of the numbers, the GS460 is likely to be faster than a V8 Genesis. And I will restate I highly doubt the Hyundai 4.6L V8 can match the Lexus 4.6L in terms of refinement and fuel economy.

And expect a V8 Genesis to have an MSRP in the mid 30K range.

Besides, I was not making any price comparisons, but looking at the Hyundai V8 from a technical point of view. It's just not that impressive.

TRDFantasy

Competitive on paper in terms of features and numbers yes. Will the Genesis be competitive in terms of refinement, engine responsiveness? That remains to be seen.

And customer satisfaction at the Hyundai dealer will certainly be lower than the competition. Hyundai needs to understand that having good dealers and good service is important in this market segment.

carguy101

Hm, had no idea that the GS460 had direct injection. Kinda makes its 342/333 figure even less impressive. Also, if the GS460 is as fast as the LS460, it doesn't prove anything. The GS is substantially lighter than the LS, so if the acceleration figures are about the same, it actually shows that the ratings are about right.

When evaluating an engine from a technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense to compare it to engines in cars costing much, much more, and then say that it's a disappointment.

Fact is, on paper, the Genesis V8 is not a disappointment at all when you compare it to the engines in its competitors, i.e., GS460, M45, 550i, A6 4.2, and E550.

TRDFantasy

I should have been more clear: if the GS460 is faster than an LS460 than that would mean the GS460 is underrated on paper.

I originally did not make the comparison to the Lexus V8, but other people in the thread did. My comments were in response to that and to simply show that the Hyundai V8 does not match the Lexus V8. The whole comparison in the first place is silly.

I can almost guarantee the Genesis will not be cross-shopped with midsize premium luxury sedans. The Genesis will likely be cross-shopped with the Pontiac G8 rather than a GS, a 5, or an M. Buyers in the luxury market have different expectations when they walk into the dealership and their expectations will not be met when they walk into a Hyundai dealership.

The "competitors" you listed is competition that Hyundai wishes to compete with, but the reality will most likely be different. Hyundai had hoped that the Azera would compete with the Lexus RX350 and that the Veracruz would compete with the Lexus RX, and we've already seen how that's turned out .

Speaking of which, why don't we compare the Pontiac G8. It makes a few HP less, but makes much more torque than the Genesis V8. The G8 has a base MSRP of 30K. It might not have the same features and options as the Genesis, but it competes directly on price and size with the Genesis. Buyers will also have a similar dealer experience at a Pontiac dealership compared to a Hyundai dealership.

Comparing to the G8's V8, the Hyundai V8 is not impressive at all. The G8 also offers arguably a better value than the Genesis. Yes the G8 is down on features but I'll bet that a G8 will cost less than a Genesis V8. Then there is the matter of styling; the G8 has aggressive and stand-out styling, while the Genesis is completely anonymous.

Whether compared to cheaper-priced or higher priced competition, I am still not impressed by Hyundai's V8, but I do applaud them in actually making a V8 before Honda.

ES350Bob

I am a buyer in luxury market vehicle segment but I also believe in getting value for money and a reliable product and in this case one that looks great.

The service departments are going to be different as well as whether there is or is not a loaner provided, I suspect not with Genesis similar to not with Honda generally speaking.

Could I tolerate that loaner or not or surroundings to drive something so appealing and which may prove out to be everything it appears with reliability.....in a New York Nano-second. The 40 k savings would allow me to hire someone to take it in for oil changes and the like if I chose to.

Bean

iTrader: (1)

I agree completely. Anyone who thinks a luxury-car buyer is going to cross-shop an LS/GS460, 5/7-series, or S/E-class with a Hyundai have got delusions of grandeur.

I liked the way the original bumper grill looked; and I like it debadged. Interior looks great. But Hyundai has terrible engine response with bad shfit points and that can totally kill a car; it makes it infuriating to drive. 375hp is impressive on paper, but we'll see how fast the car is with a power-robbing Hyundai tranny. Lexus has an extremely efficient transmission in the 8-speed. (not to mention versatile)

UDel

I agree, 375 hp may sound great on paper but depending how it is engineered it could end up being a dissapointment. The 340hp Q45 was slower then the 290HP LS430 mainly due to poor gearing and engine response. The Q45 engine was also a notorious gas hog and rougher then the LS430. I test drove a Q45 when I was looking for cars and it did not feel like 340hp when I mashed the pedal and did not feel any faster then my GS430 which going by test numbers the Q45 was slower usaully doing 0-60 4 to 5 tenths slower then the GSs times. A 340hp sedan being slower then a 290hp sedan of similiar size is a pretty big dissapointment in my book.

For all we know the Genesis v8 engine may feel underpowered, be slower then the competition, rough, a gas hog, and be unreliable so it is too early to tell whether it will be great just judging by the specs, I am hoping it is very good and would seriously consider one if it turns out being a very good all around car.

TRDFantasy

I agree. Looking at Hyundai's current engines, they look great on paper but in reality they are average at best in terms of refinement, responsiveness, fuel economy and the list goes on. There is nothing exceptional about Hyundai's current engines even though they look good on paper.

PsychDoc

Say what?

If I'm not mistaken isn't their new tranny sourced from the same outfit that makes tranny's for some of the highest end cars in the world (Bentley, etc.)?

LexFather

Dude, this car blows me away on paper to the point I do want to drive it. More than the new ES/G35/TL etc that has all come/came out.

I really want to see what this is made of.

LexFather

Exactly. Tier I brands have less to worry about as this car doesn't have a luxury nameplate behind it, even if its better on paper than hell, the S class or LS or 7. The badges of those cars= people want it and don't care if they have 20hp. Caddy and even Audi I think have less to worry about.

Other brands HAVE to be concerned as their brand does not evoke that image with the public and people's rationality with the Genesis can win out.

UDel

I hope it is as good as it is being hyped up to be. Even if it is as good as the competition it will be amazing that Hyundai made a car as good as its high priced competition and even more amazing that it can be had in the mid 30's. It most likely will not lure too many wealthy buyers from Merc, BMW, Lexus, Audi but will have them thinking what exactly I am paying so much for aside from saying I drive a nicer brand and the better dealership experience. I really do hope this car shows just how much many luxury brands overcharge on their cars, especially the higher end sedans. Some of the pricing is just ridiculious. I sat in a new S class recently and although it is a nice car it is nowhere near a 90K car. Some of the materials actually felt cheap inside like the buttons, switches, and stalks which the new accords felt nicer and higher quality and I did not find the leather all that nice either. The car is great looking but way overpriced. I can't believe people actually pay so much for it and it sells so well when it is clearly not worth anywhere near that price and is extremely unreliable to boot but many people have more money then sense and just buy for the badge. To me the S class is a high 50's to low 60K car at most and that is being pretty generous. I too am hoping the Genesis embarrases its competiton that costs over twice as much and shows how ridiculously overpriced they are. It may be priced around a base 3 series, ES, TL, G35 yet spec and sizewise it more or less competes with bigger 65K+ lux sedans like the S class, 7 series, A8, LS and that is an amazing deal, but there is still the possibility that it turns out to be a dud and not worth the hype, I will wait and see and am looking forward to reading the reviews and taking it for a test drive.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

You can't 'almost guarantee' that at all. No one has any idea what will happen. The Genesis could be a flop or it could be a success. A good part of it will depend on marketing. I can definitely see people cross-shopping it. Of course the person who MUST have their ego stroked by having an established luxury badge isn't about to walk into their local Hyundai dealer. But the SAME THING could have been said about Lexus a few years ago and can still be said for some. I still know people who have BMW or Mercedes who look down on Lexus. They think they're 'nice' and 'reliable' but they're not interested. I don't agree with them of course but there's DEFINITELY still significant differences in the vehicle 'philosophy' between Lexus and the German brands.

Sidebar: My neighbor just traded in an RX400h after previously having an X5. She HATED the RX400h and missed her X5 a lot. RX400h isn't a bad vehicle, but I can understand that. The 2 vehicles are just so different in driving experience. RX priority is on being reliable, refined, comfortable, and functional. X5 priority is on being sporty and more functional/roomy than a 5 series but that's about it. To drive an RX somewhat aggressively is pretty scary. To drive an X5 somewhat aggressively is a joy.

I disagree. G8 is targeted at 'boy racer' types, and doesn't even have a navigation option. I see the Genesis most direct competition as the G35.

I think that's too sweeping a statement and with the economy in trouble people will look around. The Lexus dealerships are beautiful but buyers know that some of their car price is paying for that polished marble and donuts and some don't care for that. In fact, while we're making sweeping statements I've before described the Lexus buyer as 'sensible' - not wanting something too flashy but wanting something highly reliable and refined and priced fairly. Well IF (and it's a huge if) Genesis is launched well, then some of those sensible buyers may well go to a Hyundai dealer and look around and say, well, it's not a fancy dealer, but for more car and less money than an ES350? Sign me up!

Maybe you meant ES350? Anyway, never read anywhere that was what Hyundai hoped, and the Azera couldn't compete anyway. Nice tail lights and an ok drivetrain, but really not that special. Plus the Sonata is so good I wouldn't be surprised if many potential Azera customers just end up getting a Sonata instead.

If you go to Hyundai's web site, and look under Veracruz/comparison, you will notice they compare it to many vehicles, but the RX isn't one of them. They do however say that Motor Trend chose the Veracruz over the RX.

http://usa.hyundai-motor.com/

I think you're just trying to push the Genesis away so it won't be compared to your beloved Lexus. Besides comparing HP and maybe price, the G8 and Genesis have almost nothing in common from design to intended customers.

Some people don't just purchase on HP 'specs' they actually drive the vehicle. I've no idea if the Genesis will be decent in reality - but I'm sure we're going to know soon enough.

This is a game changer though... look at how much we're talking about it.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

QED.

TRDFantasy

This silly Lexus vs Hyundai comparison has been discussed ad nauseam. If you want to talk marketing, Hyundai is off to a bad start with the Genesis. Remember those Genesis Superbowl ads? They're pretty forgettable. Viewers have largely been oblivious to these ads and critical consensus has been the same.

Sorry, but the same thing CANNOT be said about Lexus. Toyota put far more effort and money into the LS and Lexus launches than what Hyundai is doing with the Genesis. Toyota debuted the LS with a NEW brand and NEW dealers and the original LS changed many benchmarks and brought numerous innovations. Hyundai will be launching the Genesis under the SAME brand and the SAME dealers as it's mass market cars. The Genesis has nothing spectacular or special about it. If Hyundai was going to launch the Genesis under a new brand with new dealers, that would be a different story.

I think that's a matter of opinion . I've driven an RX330 somewhat aggressively and I found nothing scary about it. I guess it depends on what sort of driver you are. Plus, the RX400h handles better than a regular RX. Even some of the performance mags seem to like the 400h.

The Genesis V8 I still think might be cross-shopped with the G8. The Genesis will attract value-conscious buyers who would also be interested in a value-packed car like the G8. The G8 might not be a luxury car or have Nav, but it offers a roomy rear seat, a powerful V8, it's RWD, and it's an overall comfortable car.

As for the Genesis V6, I definitely agree it could be cross-shopped with the G35 not to mention the CTS. As for the 3/IS/A4, I doubt that those buyers will cross-shop the Genesis. Since the Genesis is likely to attract value-conscious buyers, I also think it could steal some value consious buyers from Acura and Buick.

Although the US economy is in a tough situation, it won't stay like this forever and the entire dynamics of the market are not going to change just to suit and favor the Genesis. Marketing, brand image, and brand reputation are still very important even in the current economic situation. One could even argue they are more important than ever. People in the US are hesistant to spend money on risky purchases, and people may very well prefer to spend money on trusted and respected brand names. Hyundai in the US still does not have a great brand image or reputation and they've never made a vehicle like the Genesis before. Some people may view it as a risky purchase.

Yes, I meant the Azera compared to the ES350. I've read before where Hyundai execs were comparing the Azera to the ES350. Also let's not forget those ridiculous Hyundai ads that have compared the Azera to vehicles like the LS460, 7 Series, and S Class. Such outlandish comparisons only hurt Hyundai's reputation and brand image. It implies that the company is desperate for attention/recognition and that it doesn't have full confidence in it's products based on their own merits.

Your description and opinion of the Azera is ironic because when the car first came out there was a lot of talk and excitement about it. People on various forums (including CL) proclaimed how the Azera was going to eat into ES/TL sales. We all know how that turned out. Your description of the Azera also can easily apply to the Genesis. The powertrains seem decent, but there is nothing special or stand-out about the Genesis.

From the Veracruz page: http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/ve.../veracruz.aspx

The RX is not mentioned in the comparisons section, but right on the front page Hyundai proudly proclaims the results of that MT comparison. Yes MT originally did the comparison but fact is that it's fully Hyundai's decision to put it on the front page and it shows that Hyundai IS comparing the Veracruz to the RX. Otherwise why would they even mention the MT comparison?

I've also read about Hyundai execs comparing the Veracruz to the RX numerous times. The RX was mentioned not just as a development benchmark, but Hyundai execs were hoping that the Veracruz would compete and be cross-shopped with the RX. Again, we all know how that turned out .

I'ts quite clear I'm talking about MUCH more than just 'HP specs'. Looking at every aspect of the Genesis, there is nothing outstanding or special about it. The most 'outstanding' quality the Genesis has is it's value proposition. Looking at Hyundai's most recent vehicles, you get what you pay for in a sense. The Genesis will offer some great value, but it's highly probable the ride will be average, and the powertrains are likely to be average overall as well. Given what the Genesis will cost, people really should not be expecting so much. At best, the Genesis will offer an overall package comparable to similarly-priced competition. I definitely don't expect the Genesis to offer a better overall package than a G35 or a CTS.

Then there is the dealer experience, which we already know will be average simply because the Genesis will be sold at Hyundai dealerships.

Of course we're talking about this car, this *IS* the Car Chat after all. We talk about A LOT of cars here on CL, but that doesn't automatically mean a vehicle is a 'game changer' just because there is a lot of talk about it on CL . I remember seeing a lot of talk about the Sonata and Azera; those two vehicles were real "game-changers" weren't they .