tex2670

VW will never learn, even after watching the Japanese for 20 years. It took Lexus all those years AFTER they created a brand new lux brand because they knew that too many people would balk at buying a true lux vehicle sitting on the showroom floor next to a Corolla.

CdeFabio

Exactly! VW is not a luxury brand and cannot command a luxury price. Could Timex or Casio sell a $5000 watch to compete with Rolex? Yes, but would people buy it...no. Sounds like VW will never learn.

mmarshall

I don't necessarily agree with this line of thought. Things in the auto industry DO change. Twenty years ago, for instance, in the U.S. market, Hyundai was selling junk rebadged Mitsubishi econoboxes, with some of the worst enginering and quality on the market. Today it equals or outdoes Toyota in some areas of quality and fit-finish, sells $40,000 Veracurz luxury SUV's, is about to introduce luxury RWD V8 sedans, and is growing faster than the number of illegal immigrants.

Same, to an extent, with VW, which, during in my lifetime at least, has gone from 40 HP, air-cooled Beetles to $50,000 luxury Touraegs that are some of the most advanced and versatile SUV's on the planet....they perform well both off and on-road, which is difficult to acheive. And, while the Touraeg does not sell in huge numbers, it sells enough, and has a large enough customer base, for VW to keep in in production, despite competition from its own brothers Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7. I think that if the Phaeton sticks around long enough, it WILL sell....it is just a matter of people actually LOOKING at it and comparing its features and price to similiar products from BMW and Mercedes.


People, for example, often come to me for advice about new or used-car purchases. When I sometimes recommend a Hyundai product (IF I feel that is the best one for their needs), I sometimes get a "What...are you kidding?.....they make junk." reaction. It takes me a while to convince them that time doesn't stand still, that those days are gone. When they DO go to the dealership, LOOK at them, and see for themselves, more often than not, another new Accent, Sonata, or Santa Fe is parked in somebody's driveway a few hours later.


Quality and engineering are quality and enginering, no matter what badge is slapped on it. And the reverse is also true........revered nameplates can also produce sub-standard products. The low reliability of many recent Mercedes products proves that.

tex2670

Hyundai found a niche--make a car fully loaded with features found in a luxury car, but price it to compete with a family car. How many Genesis buyers are cross-shopping Lexus, Infiniti, Caddy, MB? And how many are looking at Accords, Passats, Camrys, Avalons and saying: "Look at all the features I'm getting for the same price?" The original Pheaton was no bargain--with a few options, it was the same price as an A8. The Toureg isn't any bargain either; for the same price, or cheaper, you can have an RX350 or an MDX (true, no V8, but the V6 isn't cheap). If VW wanted to undercut on pricing, and try and market their car as a competitive, but less costly, alternative, they may succeed.

In the 1980s, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti didn't just jump in to compete head to head with all luxury brands--they focused on more bang for the buck to lure buyers away from lux brands, and capitalized on the Japanese reputation for quality. Hyundai's quality has substantially improved--VW has dropped.

SLegacy99

I agree. I think that the majority of the people interested in such a car are already familiar with it and in turn are familiar with the price of the first one. IMO the only way VW will truly get a car like this to sell would be to offer it in hybrid form and scoop up a bunch of buyers looking for a large car but don't want to have to wait/pay for the LS600h.

mmarshall

I disagree on two counts.

First, the Genesis has not been released for sale yet in America, so there is no direct way of knowing how many shoppers will directly compare it with luxury-nameplates...we'll just have to wait and see....but we DO know that many of the recent Azera sales hve come at the expense of the Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES, and Buick Lucerne, and recent Santa Fe/Veracruz sales at the expense of the Highlander, LX350, and Acura MDX.

Second, no matter how you look at it, despite its low sales, the Phaeton 12-cylinder WAS a relative bargain. You can't directly compare it to the Audi A8 because the Phaeton offered a W12 engine (which differs slightly from a true V12) at roughly the same price of the A8's V8 engine.

I agree with you that VW quality, in some areas, is sub-par, especially in electronics, but electrical gremlins are the bane of most German-designed cars these days, not just VW. Mercedes, in some ways, is even worse.

97-SC300

iTrader: (17)

I wasn't even aware that they stopped selling these. When I worked at VW a few years ago, I got a chance to drive the bosses' Phaeton V12.... the thing was a beast especially since I was so used to driving my 3600lb 145hp ford taurus!

mmarshall

Yes. The Phaeton W12 (it was not a true V12) was not only a beast in the power department at some 420 HP (and standard AWD to harness that power), but also had an interior fit for a king.

CdeFabio

You make some very good points, in the end people purchase what in their mind is the best for them and their needs. My brother-in-law had a Touareg and it was very advanced but the quality and reliability was horrible. When he would take it in for service he was treated like he had a $15,000 car when had actually spent more than $50,000. Luxury is more than just a price tag, it is also about quality, reliability, resale value, and the service you receive after the sale, and I believe VW has a long way to go on these points.

UDel

I don't think Volkswagen should give up on the Phaeton or a higher end car. They did not get it right with the last one in that it was way too heavy, underpowered, looked too much like a regular Volkswagen, and was too close in pricing to the nicer Audi A8 which what it was based on. Just because the Phaeton did not succeed at first does not mean they should just quit. I sat in a Phaeton and it is a very nice car, beautifully done with a really nice interior, nicer then most of its competitors. The problem was they were selling a really expensive luxury car at a Volkswagen dealership and the marketing was poor on this car, I never saw a commercial for it. They can do another one but make it smaller, lighter, more eyecatching, and price it well below its competition, I think there is a market for a German luxury sedan that gives you everything people want in a really expensive German lux sedan but at a fraction of the cost. If it is around 50-55K and is as good or better then a 80K+ Sclass or 7 series then word will get around and they will have some sales although it won't be in huge numbers. I don't think they should just give up as it could be successful if done right.

leedogg

I think the niche were talking about here is the "Bargain" luxury vehicle, where people want most of the features and goodies of a higher end brand, dont want to pay for the premium, and dont really care about brand name. In this case, comparing the phaeton and the A8 would be like comparing the Avalon and the ES, a top of the line Accord vs a TL, etc.

mmarshall

And, in this case, YOU make a good point as well. VW in general is not known for good customer service, although the local Subaru-VW shop where I bought my Outback is excellent with customers. Still, it has had some arrogant VW salespeople....one of who was perhaps the worst salesperson I ever saw. You can bet he didn't get a single dime from me.

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

If I could afford the maintenance, I would so buy one; probably over a 7, S-class or A8 (now if it's an S8 or Alpina B7, different story). It looks drop dead gorgeous and it's so well put together. Even the thump of the door is perfect. I have always loved how Audi's weight of buttons feels, things that can't be put to numbers feel so right, but I think the Phaeton is at that level, if not more. Granted I haven't driven it yet, but if it's based on the D1 (hell, same as the Bentley Flying Spur/Continental GT), I'm sure it drives good enough for a daily driven luxury car.

VWAG makes great cars, but seems like the VW symbol is the trouble...sadly I guess it's about the image and not about the car itself. Like the Passat W8 4Motion. I get excited when I see one but my friends are like "dude, it's just a VW...." [shrugs].

mmarshall>
you got lucky with your Subaru/VW shop. I had a Subaru SVX back in the days and I dreaded going to the dealership...but ironically they were the only ones that knew how to work on that car.

LexFather

That analogy is false in this case.
ES comes from Camry
Tl comes from Accord

Phaeton DOES NOT come from A8.
Phaeton is actually Bentley Continental based, its actually the BETTER platform. The Phaeton also had a few worlds first. It was not a rebadge job, it was all new the ground up, including a new plant that was nearly all glass where you could see your Phaeton built.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

i think they should make a flagship, but instead of some german uber sedan, what if they make a car like the toyota avalon. a 35-40 grand sedan with audi like features for a vw price. and people will and would cross shop vw with other luxury cars. when my dad first bought his lexus, he was originally going to buy an avalon, and when my mom bought her lx, she looked at the lc. so if toyota can sell the lc for 70 something, as well as sell the corrola s/p, why can't vw sell a flagship model and sell the rabbit too, if you guys get what i am saying. and another company that i think has the same issue, volvo. they are great cars, but would you rather, if image was your thing, have a mb or a volvo