mmarshall

No arguments there. Like you, I've always been a believer in nuclear-generated electricity , except in countries with dangerous regimes like Iran and North Korea that would use it for weapons. (but that, of course, is a topic for the DEBATE forum, not CAR CHAT)

gengar

Yes, exactly. Electricity is a terrible "solution", and I put that in quotes because it's not a solution at all. Remember that the vast majority of electricity in the US is produced in coal and other air-polluting factories. Only a minority percentage comes from natural gas and nuclear power, and a miniscule percentage from renewable sources (wind, water, etc.).

I haven't read on this topic in several years, but even the most generous study I have read regarding electric pollution per unit energy vs. ICE pollution put it at 53%, and there are studies that actually say the electric pollution is greater than ICE pollution. Additionally, I've noticed that one aspect many of these studies (and of course electricity advocates) do not consider is that there are tremendous losses in distributing electric power across the grid.

At 53%, going to electric is probably worth it although there are many infrastructure issues that would need to be resolved (and thus cut into this percentage). But if it's anywhere close to 100%, we're just wasting our time and the vast majority of electric car advocates are just fooling themselves and demonstrating their lack of knowledge.


Absolutely. It's one topic on which American envirowhackos need to take a lesson from their lily-livered French friends. If every bit of electricity came from nuclear, then of course switching to electric cars would make sense pollution-wise.

RON430

You know guys, I am not trying to start flaming anyone but diesels are being pretty unfairly treated here. I am not that impressed with the LS600h and am waiting for the European diesels to finally make their presence here. I am pretty well convinced that a diesel will be in my next large sedan. I don't see diesel as strictly competitive to hybrid as we will doubtless see diesel hybrid as well. But watching what hybrids do in Europe is fascinating. So Toyota has sold a 100,000 hybrids in Europe which is pretty good but you need to keep in mind the European environment where diesel got off to the fast start that hybrid got off to here because of regulation more than anything.

"J.D. Power predicts diesel sales in Western Europe will be surpassed

18 January 2008

Related internet links
JD Power: www.jdpower.com

Oil burners to rise in popularity in other world markets

Annual growth of diesel light-vehicle demand in Eastern Europe, Asia and North America combined is projected to surpass growth in Western Europe by the early part of the next decade, according to a report by J.D. Power.

According to the findings, North America and Asia together will account for 45 per cent of global annual demand for diesel light vehicles by 2017, compared with just 25 per cent currently.

J.D. Power said diesel was increasingly seen as part of the solution to combat rising CO2 emissions and was no longer associated with poor performance.

"Europe less critical"

As a result, significant growth in most of the major light-vehicle markets can be expected in the next decade.

Diesel registrations in the UK have soared in recent years to claim a record 967,436 sales in 2007, accounting for 40.2 per cent of all the new cars sold.

Al Bedwell, senior manager at J.D. Power Automotive Forecasting, said the trend was unlikely to last and strong diesel performance would only continue in the short-term.

“We are now entering a period when Europe will become less critical as a driver of growth in global diesel light-vehicle demand,” said Bedwell.

“In terms of absolute demand, however, Europe will still remain the most dominant region throughout the next decade.”

In 2007 in the UK alone 40% of the car registrations were diesels. And in the UK alone that was 1 million vehicles in that one year.

Will diesels get market traction here? Who knows? For now we can only speculate as there are not very many available. In the luxury end only the Mercedes E320 Bluetec is available. We'll just have to wait and see what happens but the Europeans have already made a big investment in clean diesel technology so you can't really blame the hybrid for slowing their development. Hydrogen, fuel cells, cold fusion, flywheel drive, chipmunks, etc., are all way off in the future.

spwolf

it actually does not have any merit at all.

Hybrids are what is developing battery technology right now. Without hybrids, there is no way we would have come so far at developing same techonlogy that is needed for all electric vehicles.

And besides, Hybrids can be put in use to any type of engine - same technology will be used in hydrogen cars or all electric cars.

So if anything, hybrids are what is helping all-electric vehicles.

SLegacy99

Eh, I see your point but if you compare hybrids to diesels its usually the hybrid that has the advantage. And even the cleanest of diesels are no match for the reduced emissions of hybrids.

A little comparison that you might find interesting:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...08&postcount=1

I just don't see the point of spending more money on the diesel than you would on a hybrid, only to get poorer fuel economy than the hybrid and fill up with fuel that costs 60 cents more per gallon. Its an investment that you won't get back unless you keep the car for 20 years.

RON430

Thanks for the comments. If you look into "diesel" on the search function, you will find a lot of threads about their advantages and disadvantages. It is difficult to take any one model as a hybrid might have an advantage over a diesel, and vice versa at any size. The 450h is EPA rated at 22/25 for mileage while the E320 is rated at 27/37. Out here in Cali, diesel is anywhere from even price with premium to maybe ten cents more. When you move up to the larger models there are other interesting comparisons. The 600h is rated at 20/22 and it is difficult to get straight comparisons on european models that aren't available here but the S420 right now averages around 25 mpg while the developmental S430 is reported to be averaging more like 33 mpg. I couldn't find the links to the stories quickly, no time now, but I will look for them later. I am not trying to promote one over the other, it is great to have choice.

But from what I can see for my next purchase, I have already decided that the 600h is just not that impressive from the efficiency standpoint although I admit that Lexus does not market the 600h as an efficiency hybrid but a performance hybrid, I am waiting for the A8, 7, and S class diesels to arrive which should easily be more efficient than the hybrid LS. Choice is good.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

a power plant can produce energy car more efficiently and with less pollution than a car can. Its still a step in the right direction and far better than hydrogen cars

gengar

Isn't the main barrier to diesel adoption in the US going to be diesel prices? The economics just don't work here like they do in Europe.

spwolf

Once you ride in high end diesel, let us know how it goes.

I can not believe that anyone would select really expensive diesel over hybrid becuase of the lack of refinemend and power characteristics of diesel engines.

You might not understand it right now, but once you drive, even V8 diesel, let us know what you think.

People in US have these high hopes/expectations/dreams about diesels that will come crushing down once you get to have the choice.

Yes, MPG is great. No, I cant believe anyone would choose diesel in high end car so they can save mere $300 per year in gas and drive in slower, dirtier, a lot noisier vehicle that is a lot more to maintain.

Now, Camry diesel? Sure. SUV Toyota diesels? YES. But luxury diesel in USA? It wont fly.

Mr. Jones

The E320 is rated at 23/32. You have quite an imagination thinking an E320 exceeds a Civic's fuel economy.

Also the E320 has a pathetic 210hp, seems pretty pointless compared to a GS350 which has vastly superior performance, costs $10,000 less, and delivers good fuel economy

you'll be waiting a very long time. Might as well wait for the new LS hybrid as well.

SLegacy99

Well thats exactly it. The 450h is built for speed where the E320 is more for economy. They're different animals.

And Jones is right. You crossed methods of EPA testing.

spwolf

diesel is an wonderful, wonderful tech, and hybrid diesels are going to be even more wonderful.

But diesel in large luxury sedans is defeating the point of luxury. I mean on point you have people who are complaining how GS460 is lacking 30hp, and how GS350 ticks too much and then people want big diesel in expensive luxury sedans. It just doesnt go together.

Reason diesel work in Europe is:
1. RESALE value - you can not sell used V8's in Europe - huge drops in value. In general, used petrol cars with larger engines (from 2.0 4cly) have really bad resale value compared to diesel
2. Countries subsidize price of diesel fuel
3. Car companies subsidize price of diesel engines

I know. I drive diesels daily, I ride in diesels daily. I have recently sampled the best 4cly diesels on the market in Europe and drove latest big boy V8 Toyota diesel.

Reasons hybrids didnt sell in huge number in Europe is that we drive smaller cars - on average, due to taxes, average car sold here costs 1/2 of Prius price here. And there is simply not enough selection.

Wait for 5 years, and Euro's to start selling hybrids and everyone will love them. In fact, hybrids have more advantages for Euroland than for US, due to heavy city driving.

Autobild has GS450h compared to latest super v6 diesels from Germany, and 450h engine performed wonderfully - in engine marks, it won the tests actually (they didnt like rest of the GS enough). At maximum it spent 10% more fuel than german diesels, in city it spent less and we are talking about car that is significantly faster in every power measurment than the german diesels.

spwolf

p.s. 4cly wise, current diesels are way better than petrol 4cly engines, but of course, that comes at price premium of $2-3k. And then you have hybrids which give you best of both worlds - especially when one day most cars will have hybrid variants.

RON430

Actually I drove both the BMW 7 series and A8 diesels on a business trip recently. I have no problems with either, they are both a hoot to drive IMO. It would be a real tossup between them but I think I give the edge to the A8. From the drivers seat you are hard pressed to know you are in a diesel from my experience. And yes, I have no interest in an Astra diesel. Will they gain traction in the US? Americans are just not as receptive to diesels as europe is but I find the mileage of the 600h to not justify its cost. I would just get a 460 if I liked the handling more.

Och

iTrader: (3)

The G450h gives a GS460, 550 and E500 a good run for the money.