RON430

Just depends on what mileage the diesel gets and for the models I am looking at, it is around 50% better from high teens to high twenties. Of course there can be different comparisons in different classes. Diesel may make sense to one purchaser and hybrid to another. But its not like in the US we have had the diesel option. There are also people who run premium motors on regular right now but I do run premium in the cars where it is recommended. This may be a Cali phenomenon but when we went through the last gas price escalation, diesel was more around mid grade gas price, under premium. I hate to keep moving this thread away from what was originally intended as I just wanted to mention that there are higher mileage alternatives other than hybrid. The hybrid didn't stop development of the clean diesels and I think both will have their place. The threat from hybrid is to technologies that require massive infrastructure changes like hydrogen as hybrid, and diesel for that matter, can fit into the current system just fine. Maybe diesels will flop here. Maybe they won't. Having the choice is what I want.

Nextourer

The battery is 99lbs. I didn't say the whole system.

LS600h - remember to add the larger engine and AWD system + standard features that are optional (and hence not included) in the LS460L's curb weight.

Ditto the GSh and TCH. Like you said, it's hard to compare because of the extra equipment as standard. Try the Camry 4 cylinder XLE's weight. (Wasn't sure if you used the LE, SE or XLE's weight).

LexFather

The debate wasn't about the cars weight, it was about the battery weight.
The GS 450h weighs 4150 lbs, has the power of a V-8 with the economy of a
V-6. Well guess what the M45 weighs 4100 lbs, the E class and 5 series in
V-8 forms all weight over 4000lbs. Even the GS 460 is nearly 4000 lbs.

As for the LS 600h L, not only is it loaded with most of the optional
features in the LS 460, it is AWD, which adds tons of weight.

THe ALL ALUMIMUM A8 weighs more than a LS 460.

With all the luxury and tech, cars are weighing way to much, which hurts
hybrid/diesel and gasoline fuel economy.

Nextourer

how does that work? The A8 has thicker pieces of wood or heavy alloy rims? (must be 19s or 20s)

RON430

Sorry, to me the debate was about the car weight, not the battery weight, or any other individual component. The statement was made that I was in error about the difference in vehicle weight between a hybrid and non hybrid model. The LS600h is over 700lbs heavier than a LS460L which is not exactly rental car plain in its own right. Whether all that weight is necessary for the hybrid conversion or Lexus thought it was a great idea to put all that weight in to make the model more prestigious, I really don't know or care. The LS460L doesn't impress me with its handling and the 600h is not an improvement IMO. My understanding is that the bimmer hybrid will work with an electric motor tied into the transmission and it will be a much lighter hybrid setup and one that I will certainly drive when it shows up. Obviously there are buyers for the 600h who don't care about handling and I am happy for them. Just not for me. But if Lexus can make an ES hybrid and if they can keep the weight addition to under 200lbs which everyone seems to be saying is very possible, then sign me up.

PS. The A8L is 77 lbs heavier than the LS460L but as you pointed out, AWD is heavy which the A8 is and the LS460L isn't.

RON430

You said:

"battery is 99lbs. No idea where you got 3-600 lbs total."

Sorry if I misunderstood but saying you had no idea where I got 3-600 lbs total difference in vehicle weight was just confusing to me.

Exactly how much more than the 4.6l does the 5.0l weigh? And seeing as how I can't get a LS hybrid without over 700 lbs more weight why should I care what the battery pack alone weighs? My comments were based on the driving experience of the 600h relative to the 460l and, at least for me, I could feel everyone of those extra 700+ lbs. As I recall, there wasn't any big difference in any of the trim levels of the 4 cyl Camrys as far as weight is concerned but if there is, I am sure someone will point it out to me.

Evidently, I underestimated the impact of hybrids. Doubtless they will stop funding of other alternatives.

Nextourer

You can say that again!

Bah. I see part of the problem extends to me. I apologise for the confusion.

The problem is that they see the hybrid as a premium model and add features to make people feel comfortable for the extra cost of the hybrid system. There must be a specification sheet somewhere that lists the weight of each hybrid component.

Note that each hybrid has a different total weight because the LSh's tranmission is a LOT bigger than the Prius' PSD (which fits in the palm of your hand).