It's on the Lexus press preview for the ES. They have targeted the Entry Luxury market with the IS for sporty luxury and ES for traditional.

Interestingly Lexus has tried to 'thread the needle' by making the ES 350 'out of its entry luxury comfort zone' as Bob Carter put it, most notably by the intro of the Ultra Luxury package (with panoramic roof).

In some ways, this is true (amenities wise), however at the same time the ES 350 remains entry luxury, with its FWD setup, and more simplified interior.

Yet the fact is that the GS has no UL package. IMO this shows the REAL issue which is the ES has cannibalized GS sales. More than anything Lexus stands for Luxury, and by giving the ES the UL package and a transition to LS path for buyers, it is supplanted the GS somewhat. IMO the ES is more targeted towards the traditional luxury E-Class size but the 5/E/etc. are more sporty focused which is what the GS is for. However the ES has the size and practicality which the GS is more snug. This bifurcation of the middle market does not work as well IMO.

In the entry level market, having the IS/ES makes more sense. I'm thinking that it is the GS which either needs to be moved up further to be more of a previous gen LS replacement in price and amenities, along with more sportiness, or redone as something else (4-door-coupe?) and make the ES RWD to take on the middle market. Or some other option.

 

The firm-ride/sporting crowd, though a minority, has had enormous effect throughout the whole auto industry, not just with Lexus. There are VERY few truly comfortable-riding cars left.....and those few are disappearing.

 

Isn't that a shame? It's mainly because of the automotive press. Anyone interested enough to write articles wants to hang with BMW M3s on on/off ramps. This is exactly what I saw happen to Cadillac. Cadillac moved away from big, comfortable, soft riding cars and lost all their sales to Lexus.. So where's everybody going to go when Lexus stops making these types of cars?

The first time I sat in a Lexus GS was around 2000. I couldn't believe have comfortable the car was. It amazed me. Of course, I hadn't looked at the LS yet. Now had I seen a 2007 GS for my first impression, I'd have never sat in another one again. In fact, I'd have probably never looked at Lexus again.

Watch Hyundai come around and do exactly to Lexus what Lexus did to Cadillac when Cadillac wasn't looking...

 

Yeah that would be terrible.

 

The Hyundai Genesis is on the way

 

Wow, wasn't expecting upscale to be S-Class territory. I was thinking to myself when I read the thread title "Isn't that what the UL Package is for?"

It already is "upscale" in features compared to the old ES300/330.

 

Yes the ES continues to move up. Base MSRP was 23k back in 1992. Now that is 32k in 2008.

Again, Lexus stated themeselves the new ES 350 surpases the first gen LS 400 on many/most areas.

 

Sal,
MMarshall and I have discussed this and we agree. Not eveyone needs/wants a car that handles like a 911.

Its two things, not just magazine humpers.
The other part is design has gotten so large (ugly in many cases) and well you have to have large wheels on your car or it will look disgusting.

Take the 5 series. It was 189 inches long, its now 192 inches long. On the puny 16" wheels, it looks pathetic. So you pretty much have to get 18s to make it look decent. All cars sadly, are like this for the most part.

So one hand, you have the mag humpers forcing cars to ride sportier than you have the designers that design cars after SUVs and require bigger wheels and smaller tires.

Dunlap, Michelin, etc must be partying b/c instead of customers getting tires once every 4 years, they are getting them once every two years now.

 

And I agree, after driving the ES 330 and ES 350,the difference in ride is pretty obvious. The 350 is no canyon carver but is a tigher package than the 330. The 330 is as cushy as it gets.

 

I think you guys are going way overboard in thinking or even comparing the LS to a 911 or BMW M cars in terms of ride, performance, and handling. It may be appropriate to think the LS is headed the way of the BMW 7 series though, and even the current 7 series is still a soft riding car compared to sports oriented cars.

 

In regards to size, I do feel that a full-size luxury car should be VERY roomy. Inside. And it should have a large trunk for packages and luggage. So I don't want a small car - but it doesn't have to be large on the outside. I agree that the wheels are getting too big and are eating away at the amount of rubber that separates the rim from the pavement.

As for riding in the 7-Series - while it's not as firm as an M5, it's still firm. If the future LS rides like a 7-Series, that'll have been a major transformation from the LS of the past. And in that event, I feel a lot of people would like another option from Lexus - a pure luxury option with very little to do with being sporty...

 

im gonna go out of the limb and say that lexus will/should make the LS just a bit stiffer. not as much as the 7 series, Audi, or S class, but close.

or they can make a air suspension package that actually makes a difference

 

Or they could just give the option for a stiffer suspension IF you want it...

 

Touring package, though very rare, has been touted as a very good handling car for a large sedan.

 

I think Lexus is more or less on the right path, albeit they are taking it slow. Granted, I don't like all of their offering, and L-finesse styling, but the general direction in which they are going, seems to be incredible. They have commited to expanding their hybrid technology across the entire lineup, and I'm also sure they will eventually extend the performance "F" trim across the entire line up as well. So we will have the choice between base, green and performance version of each model, which should satisfy just about everyone.

As far as moving the ES upmarket, I'm all for it, as long as the price point does not change. They should build the ES and IS on the same RWD platform, while keeping the IS as sporty as it is, and the ES as luxury as it is. I've read somewhere that the current generation ES is the last time it's being based on the Camry platform, so its possible that the next ES will be RWD.

And the LS getting sporty, thats just the side effect of the current performance fad that you have to deal with. I think Lexus could build a full size stretch limo, and automotive magazines will try and compare it's handling to a Ferrari, and God forbid it doesn't hold it's own. I just hope this fad wears out eventually, and manufacturers will start producing more traditional luxury cars.