Why not bring the ES upscale and introduce a new entry-level?
03-10-08, 07:38 PM
#31
After reading through the rest of this thread I must say that I think the "problem" is being overblown by mmarshall, Sal, and others.
The main difference for the ES is that it comes with 55 series tires from the factory, where I think the old car had like 35's. Yes, the new car is a tad tighter and firmer but it also has 60 more horsepower. I don't know that I would want 275HP in the ES 330 because it would be completely overwhelming for the suspension and probably the driver. I think the ES 350 is more of a complete and polished package overall, aside from the slightly more sparse interior which I do not favor. Also, customers seem happy with the car so unless Lexus can't sell any more of them and a large number of prospective buyers drive it and say it is too firm...they aren't going to change it. And they shouldn't.
Cadillac Catera? Dead. Infiniti I30? Gone. Cadillac DTS? Hanging by a limb. Lincoln Town Car? Dead. At lease Lexus still cares about this market and has done something with it's product. If they can redesign one of their most successful products and the biggest complaint is that it has a slightly firmer and more controlled ride...I think they're doing okay. Not to mention that it has been very popular with the public.
Yes, the market is changing. Consumers are looking more at performance numbers than in previous times when making comparative purchase decisions. Magazines are putting more emphasis on handling and 0-60 than they might have before but Lexus is not changing beneath our eyes like some here are insinuating. If anything, they have stayed more of the same than any of the other brands. Infiniti, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura and Audi are all now trying to build a better BMW while each new Lexus is continually smashed for lacking driver feedback, being dead and senseless but built beautifully and tomb quiet. Products like the IS and IS-F have helped change their image, but they still are an extension of the Lexus philosophy rather than a whole new animal like the G35 or M35 has been for Infiniti, or S5 and R8 have been for Audi.
I think that "F" is great for Lexus in many ways- showcase, halo, prestige, etc. Most of all though, they can continue to build the steadfast, high quality, precision crafted luxury products that put them on the map but can also have the devilish side for those who desire it. It's really Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. "Lexus are boring, quiet, uninspiring, and snore-inducing"
"Oh, well how about the IS-F, GT-F, GS-F...etc?"
F is the wild card. F is everything that every other Lexus can't be. F is their full on, *****-to-the-wall answer to a market place desiring more power and performance. While you might say the cheapest F product is $56K...yeah it is, but it's still there and it's still an all out brawler unlike any Lexus before it. And truthfully, the IS 350 isn't far behind but it is, again, an extension of the original Lexus philosophy of quality and craftsmanship with a bit of added performance. The IS-F is a totally new chapter. Floaty LS 460Ls and roller coaster IS-Fs all under the same stable.
If I was to make a scale of it:
More Luxurious---------------->More Sporty
ES 350-->IS 250-->IS 350-->IS 350 Sport-->IS-F
ES 350-->GS 350-->GS 450h--> GS 460
LS 460 UL Air Suspension-->LS 460-->LS 600hL--> LS 460L Touring
I put the ES in there twice because of it's size and price when loaded. Really what I am getting at is that as the market has changed, if anything Lexus has given us more options to try and please everyone as opposed to completely regearing it's products and philosophy.
We went from an IS300 to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, and now IS-F. There is a 212hp spread between the most uninspiring IS and the one that will blow your head off. Suspensions, wheels, interiors...you can make the IS into what you want. You want a super boulevard cruiser? LS 460L with Air Suspension coming right up. Want something larger that is still agile and well composed? LS 460L Touring. Just want a well built large car? LS 460 Standard. Even within the LS line, there is chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry.
The point that I am making is that Lexus' response to the changing market has simply been diversification. In a very general sense, as Lexus owners and enthusiasts we have never had so many choices between sporty or not sporty, and how sporty we want to get within a product line. Let's be thankful that they are trying to do a little of something for everyone rather than alienating their core buyers to chase magazine reviews, i.e. Cadillac or Infiniti. And looking at their product line, the least successful product is the one that offers the least options. The GS doesn't offer an UL package or sports package so it's neither the sportiest, nor the most luxurious, nor the best mix of both. Next generation Lexus needs to look at how well the IS has done and apply their strategy to it's bigger brother.
my .02
The main difference for the ES is that it comes with 55 series tires from the factory, where I think the old car had like 35's. Yes, the new car is a tad tighter and firmer but it also has 60 more horsepower. I don't know that I would want 275HP in the ES 330 because it would be completely overwhelming for the suspension and probably the driver. I think the ES 350 is more of a complete and polished package overall, aside from the slightly more sparse interior which I do not favor. Also, customers seem happy with the car so unless Lexus can't sell any more of them and a large number of prospective buyers drive it and say it is too firm...they aren't going to change it. And they shouldn't.
Cadillac Catera? Dead. Infiniti I30? Gone. Cadillac DTS? Hanging by a limb. Lincoln Town Car? Dead. At lease Lexus still cares about this market and has done something with it's product. If they can redesign one of their most successful products and the biggest complaint is that it has a slightly firmer and more controlled ride...I think they're doing okay. Not to mention that it has been very popular with the public.
Yes, the market is changing. Consumers are looking more at performance numbers than in previous times when making comparative purchase decisions. Magazines are putting more emphasis on handling and 0-60 than they might have before but Lexus is not changing beneath our eyes like some here are insinuating. If anything, they have stayed more of the same than any of the other brands. Infiniti, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura and Audi are all now trying to build a better BMW while each new Lexus is continually smashed for lacking driver feedback, being dead and senseless but built beautifully and tomb quiet. Products like the IS and IS-F have helped change their image, but they still are an extension of the Lexus philosophy rather than a whole new animal like the G35 or M35 has been for Infiniti, or S5 and R8 have been for Audi.
I think that "F" is great for Lexus in many ways- showcase, halo, prestige, etc. Most of all though, they can continue to build the steadfast, high quality, precision crafted luxury products that put them on the map but can also have the devilish side for those who desire it. It's really Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. "Lexus are boring, quiet, uninspiring, and snore-inducing"
"Oh, well how about the IS-F, GT-F, GS-F...etc?"
F is the wild card. F is everything that every other Lexus can't be. F is their full on, *****-to-the-wall answer to a market place desiring more power and performance. While you might say the cheapest F product is $56K...yeah it is, but it's still there and it's still an all out brawler unlike any Lexus before it. And truthfully, the IS 350 isn't far behind but it is, again, an extension of the original Lexus philosophy of quality and craftsmanship with a bit of added performance. The IS-F is a totally new chapter. Floaty LS 460Ls and roller coaster IS-Fs all under the same stable.
If I was to make a scale of it:
More Luxurious---------------->More Sporty
ES 350-->IS 250-->IS 350-->IS 350 Sport-->IS-F
ES 350-->GS 350-->GS 450h--> GS 460
LS 460 UL Air Suspension-->LS 460-->LS 600hL--> LS 460L Touring
I put the ES in there twice because of it's size and price when loaded. Really what I am getting at is that as the market has changed, if anything Lexus has given us more options to try and please everyone as opposed to completely regearing it's products and philosophy.
We went from an IS300 to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, and now IS-F. There is a 212hp spread between the most uninspiring IS and the one that will blow your head off. Suspensions, wheels, interiors...you can make the IS into what you want. You want a super boulevard cruiser? LS 460L with Air Suspension coming right up. Want something larger that is still agile and well composed? LS 460L Touring. Just want a well built large car? LS 460 Standard. Even within the LS line, there is chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry.
The point that I am making is that Lexus' response to the changing market has simply been diversification. In a very general sense, as Lexus owners and enthusiasts we have never had so many choices between sporty or not sporty, and how sporty we want to get within a product line. Let's be thankful that they are trying to do a little of something for everyone rather than alienating their core buyers to chase magazine reviews, i.e. Cadillac or Infiniti. And looking at their product line, the least successful product is the one that offers the least options. The GS doesn't offer an UL package or sports package so it's neither the sportiest, nor the most luxurious, nor the best mix of both. Next generation Lexus needs to look at how well the IS has done and apply their strategy to it's bigger brother.
my .02
Last edited by MPLexus301; 03-10-08 at 08:03 PM.
03-10-08, 07:39 PM
#32
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I highly disagree.
Other than a "feeling", do you have any proof that Lexus will make the LS stiffer and more sporting? What makes you think they will make it as sporting as a 7 Series?
The LS, despite being a bit sportier and a bit stiffer, is still VERY comfortable and more luxurious and comfortable than the competition.
Moving the ES up-market and introducing a new entry-level model is silly. First off, the ES is primarily for the North American market. It's barely sold in Asian or European markets.
A lot of people are complaing about the suspension of the new LS? I sure haven't seen or heard about it. Most 4LS owners seem to love their cars. Even looking at CL's LS forums, I don't see that many complaints about the "stiffness" of the LS. If you put the suspension on it's most comfortable setting, it's VERY comfortable, and very close to the comfort of the LS430 despite having better performance.
Lexus is listening to the press? The GS interior is colder than a 5 Series? I hope you're joking. The GS interior while being stark, is certainly NOT colder than a 5 Series. The GS interior at least has curves and LED lighting. The 5 interior is all angles.
I think you're jumping to conclusions and making some flawed assumptions. Lexus is not listening to the automotive press, as much as they are listening to customers.
Do you want to know WHY the ES350 and 4LS are a bit sportier and stiffer? It's because of criticism and complaints from Lexus customers. It was not just the auto press, but it was actual Lexus owners that wanted Lexus to add a bit more sportiness to their cars. Toyota also wants to reduce the average age of it's owners so that is another reason why a bit more performance is being added.
Make no mistake, the LS is nowhere near a "sports car". The real sport offerings from Lexus will be the F-cars. Lexus has no need to make their regular models more sporty, except for maybe the GS.
There is also the issue that a sub-ES model will dilute and bring down the Lexus brand. If the ES were to go upmarket it would also compete even more with the GS; it just wouldn't work.
Exactly. Lexus is catering to the market. It's silly to think Lexus is catering to a few automotive publications or to select enthusiasts.
Other than a "feeling", do you have any proof that Lexus will make the LS stiffer and more sporting? What makes you think they will make it as sporting as a 7 Series?
The LS, despite being a bit sportier and a bit stiffer, is still VERY comfortable and more luxurious and comfortable than the competition.
Moving the ES up-market and introducing a new entry-level model is silly. First off, the ES is primarily for the North American market. It's barely sold in Asian or European markets.
A lot of people are complaing about the suspension of the new LS? I sure haven't seen or heard about it. Most 4LS owners seem to love their cars. Even looking at CL's LS forums, I don't see that many complaints about the "stiffness" of the LS. If you put the suspension on it's most comfortable setting, it's VERY comfortable, and very close to the comfort of the LS430 despite having better performance.
Lexus is listening to the press? The GS interior is colder than a 5 Series? I hope you're joking. The GS interior while being stark, is certainly NOT colder than a 5 Series. The GS interior at least has curves and LED lighting. The 5 interior is all angles.
I think you're jumping to conclusions and making some flawed assumptions. Lexus is not listening to the automotive press, as much as they are listening to customers.
Do you want to know WHY the ES350 and 4LS are a bit sportier and stiffer? It's because of criticism and complaints from Lexus customers. It was not just the auto press, but it was actual Lexus owners that wanted Lexus to add a bit more sportiness to their cars. Toyota also wants to reduce the average age of it's owners so that is another reason why a bit more performance is being added.
Make no mistake, the LS is nowhere near a "sports car". The real sport offerings from Lexus will be the F-cars. Lexus has no need to make their regular models more sporty, except for maybe the GS.
There is also the issue that a sub-ES model will dilute and bring down the Lexus brand. If the ES were to go upmarket it would also compete even more with the GS; it just wouldn't work.
In recent years there has been an increased movement towards on-road performance so as a result we are getting more horsepower, bigger wheels, stiffer suspensions, more advanced transmissions, etc.
Lexus is simply responding to this and making certain models like the ES and LS a bit sportier to cater to the market, as well as to try and keep past owners happy. The ES is still very much what you described...FWD, V6, comfortable, luxurious, and relatively "unsporty". It's also a midsize car that is even bigger than the GS in some dimensions so I think all in all, the ES does a fine job of being priced at the bottom but still occupying the middle and keeping luxury shoppers happy.
So no, I don't think the ES should be repositioned in the lineup. ES = entry level luxury and IS = entry level sport. The GS is the one that needs some repositioning to be honest with you. The LS is still a cushy luxury cruiser, especially compared to it's rivals.
Lexus is simply responding to this and making certain models like the ES and LS a bit sportier to cater to the market, as well as to try and keep past owners happy. The ES is still very much what you described...FWD, V6, comfortable, luxurious, and relatively "unsporty". It's also a midsize car that is even bigger than the GS in some dimensions so I think all in all, the ES does a fine job of being priced at the bottom but still occupying the middle and keeping luxury shoppers happy.
So no, I don't think the ES should be repositioned in the lineup. ES = entry level luxury and IS = entry level sport. The GS is the one that needs some repositioning to be honest with you. The LS is still a cushy luxury cruiser, especially compared to it's rivals.
03-10-08, 07:43 PM
#33
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After reading through the rest of this thread I must say that I think the "problem" is being overblown by mmarshall, Sal, and others.
The main difference for the ES is that it comes with 55 series tires from the factory, where I think the old car had like 35's. Yes, the new car is a tad tighter and firmer but it also has 60 more horsepower. I don't know that I would want 275HP in the ES 330 because it would be completely overwhelming for the suspension and probably the driver. I think the ES 350 is more of a complete and polished package overall, aside from the slightly more sparse interior which I do not favor. Also, customers seem happy with the car so unless Lexus can't sell any more of them and a large number of prospective buyers drive it and say it is too firm...they aren't going to change it. And they shouldn't.
Cadillac Catera? Dead. Infiniti I30? Gone. Cadillac DTS? Hanging by a limb. Lincoln Town Car? Dead. At lease Lexus still cares about this market and has done something with it's product. If they can redesign one of their most successful products and the biggest complaint is that it has a slightly firmer and more controlled ride...I think they're doing okay. Not to mention that it has been very popular with the public.
Yes, the market is changing. Consumers are looking more at performance numbers than in previous times when making comparative purchase decisions. Magazines are putting more emphasis on handling and 0-60 than they might have before but Lexus is not changing beneath our eyes like some here are insinuating. If anything, they have stayed more of the same than any of the other brands. Infiniti, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura and Audi are all now trying to build a better BMW while each new Lexus is continually smashed for lacking driver feedback, being dead and senseless but built beautifully and tomb quiet. Products like the IS and IS-F have helped change their image, but they still are an extension of the Lexus philosophy rather than a whole new animal like the G35 or M35 has been for Infiniti, or S5 and R8 have been for Audi.
I think that "F" is great for Lexus in many ways- showcase, halo, prestige, etc. Most of all though, they can continue to build the steadfast, high quality, precision crafted luxury products that put them on the map but can also have the devilish side for those who desire it. It's really Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. "Lexus are boring, quiet, uninspiring, and snore-inducing"
"Oh, well how about the IS-F, GT-F, GS-F...etc?"
F is the wild card. F is everything that every other Lexus can't be. F is their full on, *****-to-the-wall answer to a market place desiring more power and performance. While you might say the cheapest F product is $56K...yeah it is, but it's still there and it's still an all out brawler unlike any Lexus before it. And truthfully, the IS 350 isn't far behind but it is, again, an extension of the original Lexus philosophy of quality and craftsmanship with a bit of added performance. The IS-F is a totally new chapter. Floaty LS 460Ls and roller coaster IS-Fs all under the same stable.
If I was to make a scale of it:
More Luxurious---------------->More Sporty
ES 350-->IS 250-->IS 350-->IS 350 Sport-->IS-F
ES 350-->GS 350-->GS 450h--> GS 460
LS 460 UL Air Suspension-->LS 460-->LS 600hL--> LS 460L Touring
I put the ES in there twice because of it's size and price when loaded. Really what I am getting at is that as the market has changed, if anything Lexus has given us more options to try and please everyone as opposed to completely regearing it's products and philosophy.
We went from an IS300 to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, and now IS-F. There is a 212hp spread between the most uninspiring IS and the one that will blow your head off. Suspensions, wheels, interiors...you can make the IS into what you want. You want a super boulevard cruiser? LS 460L with Air Suspension coming right up. Want something larger that is still agile and well composed? LS 460L Touring.
The point that I am making is that Lexus' response to the changing market has simply been diversification. In a very general sense, as Lexus owners and enthusiasts we have never had so many choices between sporty or not sporty, and how sporty we want to get within a product line. Let's be thankful that they are trying to do a little of something for everyone rather than alienating their core buyers to chase magazine reviews, i.e. Cadillac or Infiniti. And looking at their product line, the lease successful product is the one that offers the least options. The GS doesn't offer an UL package or sports package so it's neither the sportiest, nor the most luxurious, nor the best mix of both. Next generation Lexus needs to look at how well the IS has done and apply their strategy to it's bigger brother.
my .02
The main difference for the ES is that it comes with 55 series tires from the factory, where I think the old car had like 35's. Yes, the new car is a tad tighter and firmer but it also has 60 more horsepower. I don't know that I would want 275HP in the ES 330 because it would be completely overwhelming for the suspension and probably the driver. I think the ES 350 is more of a complete and polished package overall, aside from the slightly more sparse interior which I do not favor. Also, customers seem happy with the car so unless Lexus can't sell any more of them and a large number of prospective buyers drive it and say it is too firm...they aren't going to change it. And they shouldn't.
Cadillac Catera? Dead. Infiniti I30? Gone. Cadillac DTS? Hanging by a limb. Lincoln Town Car? Dead. At lease Lexus still cares about this market and has done something with it's product. If they can redesign one of their most successful products and the biggest complaint is that it has a slightly firmer and more controlled ride...I think they're doing okay. Not to mention that it has been very popular with the public.
Yes, the market is changing. Consumers are looking more at performance numbers than in previous times when making comparative purchase decisions. Magazines are putting more emphasis on handling and 0-60 than they might have before but Lexus is not changing beneath our eyes like some here are insinuating. If anything, they have stayed more of the same than any of the other brands. Infiniti, Mercedes, Cadillac, Acura and Audi are all now trying to build a better BMW while each new Lexus is continually smashed for lacking driver feedback, being dead and senseless but built beautifully and tomb quiet. Products like the IS and IS-F have helped change their image, but they still are an extension of the Lexus philosophy rather than a whole new animal like the G35 or M35 has been for Infiniti, or S5 and R8 have been for Audi.
I think that "F" is great for Lexus in many ways- showcase, halo, prestige, etc. Most of all though, they can continue to build the steadfast, high quality, precision crafted luxury products that put them on the map but can also have the devilish side for those who desire it. It's really Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. "Lexus are boring, quiet, uninspiring, and snore-inducing"
"Oh, well how about the IS-F, GT-F, GS-F...etc?"
F is the wild card. F is everything that every other Lexus can't be. F is their full on, *****-to-the-wall answer to a market place desiring more power and performance. While you might say the cheapest F product is $56K...yeah it is, but it's still there and it's still an all out brawler unlike any Lexus before it. And truthfully, the IS 350 isn't far behind but it is, again, an extension of the original Lexus philosophy of quality and craftsmanship with a bit of added performance. The IS-F is a totally new chapter. Floaty LS 460Ls and roller coaster IS-Fs all under the same stable.
If I was to make a scale of it:
More Luxurious---------------->More Sporty
ES 350-->IS 250-->IS 350-->IS 350 Sport-->IS-F
ES 350-->GS 350-->GS 450h--> GS 460
LS 460 UL Air Suspension-->LS 460-->LS 600hL--> LS 460L Touring
I put the ES in there twice because of it's size and price when loaded. Really what I am getting at is that as the market has changed, if anything Lexus has given us more options to try and please everyone as opposed to completely regearing it's products and philosophy.
We went from an IS300 to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, and now IS-F. There is a 212hp spread between the most uninspiring IS and the one that will blow your head off. Suspensions, wheels, interiors...you can make the IS into what you want. You want a super boulevard cruiser? LS 460L with Air Suspension coming right up. Want something larger that is still agile and well composed? LS 460L Touring.
The point that I am making is that Lexus' response to the changing market has simply been diversification. In a very general sense, as Lexus owners and enthusiasts we have never had so many choices between sporty or not sporty, and how sporty we want to get within a product line. Let's be thankful that they are trying to do a little of something for everyone rather than alienating their core buyers to chase magazine reviews, i.e. Cadillac or Infiniti. And looking at their product line, the lease successful product is the one that offers the least options. The GS doesn't offer an UL package or sports package so it's neither the sportiest, nor the most luxurious, nor the best mix of both. Next generation Lexus needs to look at how well the IS has done and apply their strategy to it's bigger brother.
my .02
.I agree completely. Lexus is offering more choice than ever, and will I think they will offer even more choice in the future.
03-10-08, 07:54 PM
#34
Lexus Champion
IMHO, the automotive press reports on, and test drives what the manufacturers are producing.
Manufacturers are producing what people want and what people are buying. This constantly changes with the times.
The market drives the industry much more than the automotive press.
Manufacturers are producing what people want and what people are buying. This constantly changes with the times.
The market drives the industry much more than the automotive press.
03-10-08, 08:08 PM
#35
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
At least in part, the press molds opinion... If the media convinces enough people that people who wear pink hats with purple polka dots are cool, than it would be politically incorrect to badmouth, even jokingly, the people who wear them. So if the media convinces enough people that cars are handling too soft, most people are going to get in and think, "Yeah. This car DOES handle too soft"...
Most people are dumb like that.. What do they call them.... Sheep? Yes, sheep.. They follow the trends and set their opinions based on what everybody else says. Just like most people who vote for the President of the United States have no idea who they're voting for. They only know what they heard on the radio, saw on television or heard from friends. That's not "knowing" anything but hearsay...
Most people are dumb like that.. What do they call them.... Sheep? Yes, sheep.. They follow the trends and set their opinions based on what everybody else says. Just like most people who vote for the President of the United States have no idea who they're voting for. They only know what they heard on the radio, saw on television or heard from friends. That's not "knowing" anything but hearsay...
Last edited by Sal Collaziano; 03-10-08 at 08:13 PM.
03-10-08, 08:15 PM
#36
IMHO, the automotive press reports on, and test drives what the manufacturers are producing.
Manufacturers are producing what people want and what people are buying. This constantly changes with the times.
The market drives the industry much more than the automotive press.
Manufacturers are producing what people want and what people are buying. This constantly changes with the times.
The market drives the industry much more than the automotive press.
03-11-08, 12:26 AM
#37
In regards to size, I do feel that a full-size luxury car should be VERY roomy. Inside. And it should have a large trunk for packages and luggage. So I don't want a small car - but it doesn't have to be large on the outside. I agree that the wheels are getting too big and are eating away at the amount of rubber that separates the rim from the pavement.
As for riding in the 7-Series - while it's not as firm as an M5, it's still firm. If the future LS rides like a 7-Series, that'll have been a major transformation from the LS of the past. And in that event, I feel a lot of people would like another option from Lexus - a pure luxury option with very little to do with being sporty...
As for riding in the 7-Series - while it's not as firm as an M5, it's still firm. If the future LS rides like a 7-Series, that'll have been a major transformation from the LS of the past. And in that event, I feel a lot of people would like another option from Lexus - a pure luxury option with very little to do with being sporty...
Like I said, it is all subjective and while some might want a much softer Lexus, some want Lexus to move toward a more sporty car. Can't please everyone though. If the "F" line takes off that may please the sporty buyer though. Maybe it has something to do with age. I'm closer to 40 than 30 though. Hopefully that is still young
03-11-08, 12:45 AM
#38
Without reading all the posts in this thread... If Lexus were to move it's upscale Camry, what would take it's place? A more "luxurious" Corolla? A pimped out Yaris? In all honestly, if Lexus had anything lower than the ES it would be bordering on cheapening the brand IMO. I don't think the FWD ES platform is suited to be anymore upscale than it is now, if it were RWD with AWD option and no GS or IS existed, then this might be a good argument, but come on, FWD, $40k+? No thanks, I'll take a 3/5 Series, E Class, A4/6, M35/45, etc any day over that. Even at the current price, I could not justify an ES in all honesty...
Last edited by 92 SC400; 03-11-08 at 12:50 AM.
03-11-08, 01:50 AM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
The main difference for the ES is that it comes with 55 series tires from the factory, where I think the old car had like 35's.
The old IS300 also had standard 45's, with the the option of 55-series all-season tires. That option is now gone, on both the IS250 and 350, (even the AWD models
). You're now stuck with the 45's. I considered an IS250AWD, but did not purchase one......that is one of the prime reasons why.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-11-08 at 01:58 AM.
03-11-08, 01:54 AM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
03-11-08, 07:12 AM
#42
Not the way we see it. The ES is not supposed to be a BMW.
WAY incorrect. The old car (ES330) had 60's....and a softer suspension as well.
The old IS300 also had standard 45's, with the the option of 55-series all-season tires. That option is now gone, on both the IS250 and 350, (even the AWD models ). You're now stuck with the 45's. I considered an IS250AWD, but did not purchase one......that is one of the prime reasons why.
WAY incorrect. The old car (ES330) had 60's....and a softer suspension as well.
The old IS300 also had standard 45's, with the the option of 55-series all-season tires. That option is now gone, on both the IS250 and 350, (even the AWD models
). You're now stuck with the 45's. I considered an IS250AWD, but did not purchase one......that is one of the prime reasons why.Both you and Sal have been keeping your fingers crossed for the Hyundai Genesis and maybe that will work out for you...and maybe not. They're gunning for the 5 Series and E Class so I don't know if mushy suspensions and 60 series tires are going to do it for them but I hope it strikes your fancy when it comes out.
03-11-08, 07:16 AM
#43
This generation of ES we gained the UL package option.
This generation of IS we went from one model to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, IS-F and will soon gain even more variants.
The 4th generation LS gained a long wheelbase option and the hybrid.
I don't know why a slightly firmer ride has you rubbed the wrong way so badly. Buy a Camry XLE V6.
03-11-08, 08:07 AM
#44
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You're right, the ES is not supposed to be a BMW, and it isn't a BMW. The ES is nowhere near a BMW, even if it's a bit more sporting.
How is it NOT more choice? Previous generation ES models never had variable suspension or comfort settings. Previous-gen ES models also never had the UL package and the ultra-luxury options the ES350 has.
Less choice
? You mean like the previous gen IS right, where it was either an IS300 or nothing . Now you have AWD on the IS, and you have 3 engine choices, not to mention luxury and sport packages. The 3rd engine choice is in a brand new variant in the form of the IS-F, to please hardcore enthusiasts and to attract new buyers than never considered Lexus before.
Fact is, over the past few years Lexus has been offering more choice than ever.
Exactly.
Less choice
? You mean like the previous gen IS right, where it was either an IS300 or nothing . Now you have AWD on the IS, and you have 3 engine choices, not to mention luxury and sport packages. The 3rd engine choice is in a brand new variant in the form of the IS-F, to please hardcore enthusiasts and to attract new buyers than never considered Lexus before. Fact is, over the past few years Lexus has been offering more choice than ever.
Come on man, that doesn't even make sense. Bottom line: you can change the tires if they kill you that much.
This generation of ES we gained the UL package option.
This generation of IS we went from one model to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, IS-F and will soon gain even more variants.
The 4th generation LS gained a long wheelbase option and the hybrid.
I don't know why a slightly firmer ride has you rubbed the wrong way so badly. Buy a Camry XLE V6.
This generation of ES we gained the UL package option.
This generation of IS we went from one model to IS 250, IS 250 AWD, IS 350, IS 350 Sport, IS-F and will soon gain even more variants.
The 4th generation LS gained a long wheelbase option and the hybrid.
I don't know why a slightly firmer ride has you rubbed the wrong way so badly. Buy a Camry XLE V6.
03-11-08, 08:13 AM
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the es would lose sales if it were to move up. I doubt anyone would pay that much for a fwd luxury car. see the acura rl thats not doing too well is it? keep it were it is. lexus dont need that many models. I dont want them to be like benz and have a A-Z class.