Sal Collaziano

The ES seems to be in a weird place right now. I hear a lot of complaining - and people stating that the outgoing ES330 was a better vehicle than the new ES350. At any cost, there are a LOT of Lexus ES cars on the road.

I have this funny feeling that the LS, from this point on, is going to be more of an enthusiast car than ever. The suspension has stiffened, and power is abundant. The reviews are in and they're mostly positive. So this tells me that Lexus will continue on this "enthusiast" path and continue to stiffen and further empower the LS in the future. This will make the car a "luxury sports" car and will compete directly with the BMW 7-Series, Audi A8 and the like.

Like Robin Williams said in the movie Dead Again, "either you’re a smoker or you’re a non-smoker. Find out what you are and be that."

So what's the LS? Is it a luxury sports car? Or a luxury car? You can't be both and be the best. The Yankees have a shortstop named Derek Jeter (heard of him?). He's one of the best - if not THE best shortstop in baseball (or he was at one time). He got that way by LIVING shortstop. He ate it, drank it, dreamed it, played it and thought about it constantly. He became the best.

Then there's Luis Sojo. He's pretty damned good everywhere! First base, second base, shortstop, third base, the outfield.. But he's not the best at anything. So he sits on the bench 99% of the time.

So again - what is the Lexus LS? A luxury sports car or a luxury car?

At first, it was much more like a luxury car - like the Mercedes S430. But times change (just look at Cadillac).

So where does that leave the people who love the full-size, soft, quite and comfortable cars that Lexus replaced Lincolns and Cadillacs with? With the ES? That's not going to work..

So why not bring the ES upscale and have it compete, at a lower price-point, with the Mercedes S-Class (without the extreme power)? Leave it FWD to keep costs down (again, this is not an enthusiast car), leave the V6, leave the suspension VERY soft (like the LS430). Start it at $45k-$50k and don't risk losing sales from luxury buyers who aren't interested in horsepower or race-car handling...

Any thoughts?

LexBob2

With this scenario, wouldn't you have the ES350, IS350 and GS350 all bunched up near the same price point?

Seems like you still need some price separation between the various models to make each of them viable.

Sal Collaziano

Since the IS and GS sell to different customers, wouldn't it be okay to stay close? And of course, there'd be a new entry-level...

Choas

I do have to agree that you can argue the point that the es300 and es330 at least in my option are better than the new es350.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it will work. THe ES and IS are known to be the entry level car for Lexus, just like the 3 series or C class for BMW and Mercedes. You can't simply move it upscale and compete with the S Class or 5 and 7 series as IMHO in its current FWD Camry based platform and history it just wouldn't be competitive. You would have to completely redesign the ES, make it RWD, and make it larger. If you do that you might as well just introduce a completely new line all together. The only thing I can see Lexus doing as the price of the IS and ES go higher is introduce an even lower entry level car, but I don't think the IS and ES will ever be able to compete against the larger full luxury cars.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

In recent years there has been an increased movement towards on-road performance so as a result we are getting more horsepower, bigger wheels, stiffer suspensions, more advanced transmissions, etc.

Lexus is simply responding to this and making certain models like the ES and LS a bit sportier to cater to the market, as well as to try and keep past owners happy. The ES is still very much what you described...FWD, V6, comfortable, luxurious, and relatively "unsporty". It's also a midsize car that is even bigger than the GS in some dimensions so I think all in all, the ES does a fine job of being priced at the bottom but still occupying the middle and keeping luxury shoppers happy.

So no, I don't think the ES should be repositioned in the lineup. ES = entry level luxury and IS = entry level sport. The GS is the one that needs some repositioning to be honest with you. The LS is still a cushy luxury cruiser, especially compared to it's rivals.

RX_330

The ES will never be able to compete with the S-Class/7-Seriesetc.

Q_Lexie

Then wouldn't it be better to have 2 different LS's? One for comfort (like the LS's of today) and one for sportiness like LS-F. MB has S550, etc. and S63 AMG. It's true that Lexus has been shifting over to sport segment for past several years, and they seem to be investing more money on it.

LexBob2

I agree. The ES, IS and LS are all selling well. Lexus could better define/reposition the GS within its market segment.

The ES is the bread and butter sedan with sales of around 150K since the new gen came out in April-May '06, so I don't think Lexus will make any wholesale changes in its market positioning any time soon.

Initial B

iTrader: (2)

The GS needs alegitimate manual shift system, BADLY. So does the IS350

LexFather

If you go to Lexus.com and scroll under LS/ES etc, they describe the car for you. I think LS is prestige luxury, ES is luxury sedan, GS is performance luxury etc....

Anything below the ES belongs in Europe, where 4 cylinders and diesels are needed. Toyota has been pretty adamant about leaving under 30k for Toyotas.

My idea I've posted before is have the 2 car strategey for ALL the levels.
So how we have an IS /ES
GS/HS
LS/RS

Or hopefully, the F lineup expands beyond the IS.

The ES has been either #1 or #2 in sales here for 18 years. Its fine.

Sal Collaziano

So instead of bringing the ES up market - introduce a new model priced a little lower than the LS that caters to the "luxury" crowd more than the "performance" crowd. While the LS is still a soft riding vehicle - especially compared to other vehicles - I don't see this being the case for long.

It's looking to me like the LS is going to become more and more sporty to appease the automotive press and the few driving enthusiasts that own Lexi. More people like soft riding, comfortable cars than stiff riding performance cars. Of course, around here, it won't seem that way. But sites like this see a TINY little percentage of vehicle owners - and most of them/us are enthusiasts...

So while the LS gets stiffer and sportier, bring something else into the fold that stays softer and more luxurious.

Lexus is being distracted by the automotive press and we see mistakes happening as a result. Look at the interior of the GS. What happened? It's colder and harder than a new 5-Series. Countless people criticize the ES interior. And I see a good share of people complaining about the new-found stiffness of the LS suspension.

So if the LS is going to turn into a 7-Series, please bring us a new LS.

I don't "think" the following is necessary for the luxury-buying non-enthusiast driver: V8, RWD, Stiff Suspension

Sal Collaziano

Can you link to your 2-car strategy?

RX_330

Despite all of the stiffening up, the LS still rides relatively softly compared to the competitors. Lexus doesn't need to water down their lineup with more models. I'd hate to see them go in the direction of Mercedes and BMW and come up with a new model every six months.

mmarshall

This, unfortunately, has also happened with the ES. Compare the ES350 tires/suspension (and ride) with that of the ES330. While still no sports car, the ES350's ride is noticeably firmer.


Extremely quiet, yes, but a little less cushy than its prececessor LS430.